I think I can resolve this. JoshuaZ would almost definitely admit that they were being irrational. What he disagrees with is you going further and calling it disgraceful and evil.
So what’s the difference? He seems to have pinpointed the former term as implying that they’re trying to do harm, and the latter one as adding a whole slew of extra layers of incompetence or idiocy. He argued that they aren’t targeting somebody they think is innocent (thus they’re not “evil”), and that their failure of irrationality was understandable (therefore not “disgraceful”). That’s it.
He disagreed with you by arguing that their behavior isn’t intentionally bad (as “evil” seems to imply), and that it’s much more excusable than what “disgraceful” seems to connote. But you on the other hand seem to be using these terms not to make them sound like they want to harm an innocent person or are stupider than they are, but simply to stress just how destructive this sort of behavior is and can be.
As often is the case, the disagreement seems to boil down to simple miscommunication. If I’m right in my (somewhat cursory) assessment, then there’s no actual difference of opinion, and this is just yet another mundane example of the words getting in the way.
As often is the case, the disagreement seems to boil down to simple miscommunication. If I’m right in my (somewhat cursory) assessment, then there’s no actual difference of opinion, and this is just yet another mundane example of the words getting in the way.
There is a difference in actual opinion. It is not excessively important right now given how little power we have over this scenario. It would become important if we were, for example, choosing where the law should place the boundary of ‘libel’ and related laws.
He argued that they aren’t targeting somebody they think is innocent (thus they’re not “evil”), and that their failure of irrationality was understandable (therefore not “disgraceful”). That’s it.
That’s a big ‘it’. I understand why humans do an awful lot of the things they do and quite often empathize with them. It’s understandable for people to want other people’s stuff, have sex and to eliminate rivals, for example. That doesn’t make the behaviours involved less disgraceful or necessary to prevent.
So what’s the difference? He seems to have pinpointed the former term as implying that they’re trying to do harm, and the latter one as adding a whole slew of extra layers of incompetence or idiocy.
They are trying to do harm. They are trying to destroy the lives of some scapegoats.
There is a difference in actual opinion. It is not excessively important right now given how little power we have over this scenario. It would become important if we were, for example, choosing where the law should place the boundary of ‘libel’ and related laws.
I don’t understand how the second two sentences support the first.
That’s a big ‘it’. I understand why humans do an awful lot of the things they do and quite often empathize with them. It’s understandable for people to want other people’s stuff, have sex and to eliminate rivals, for example. That doesn’t make the behaviours involved less disgraceful or necessary to prevent.
What’s “disgraceful” mean to you? To JoshuaZ it meant unusually idiotic and irrational. He argued that this isn’t the case; it’s very usual (“understandable”).
I assume you mean something else by “disgraceful” (very destructive and necessary to prevent or whatever), thus as often is the case the disagreement boils down to miscommunication by both parties.
They are trying to do harm. They are trying to destroy the lives of some scapegoats.
No, they’re trying to destroy the lives of who they think murdered their daughter. That’s certainly not a case of trying to harm who they think an innocent person (which is the ordinary interpretation of “evil” and how JoshuaZ seems to have interpreted it).
Notice how the perspective changes in your sentence:
They are trying to destroy the lives
This is from their perspective. It’s a statement about their state of mind: they want to destroy these people’s lives.
some scapegoats
But now it’s from your point of view. It’s a statement about your state of mind: they’re innocent people being targeted for emotional reasons (or more precisely, people with no or not enough evidence against them to be criminalized).
A statement that stays on their perspective (as opposed to quietly switching to yours at the end) would read like this: “They are trying to destroy the lives of the people who they think brutally murdered their daughter.” And with that it loses the “evil” flavor and picks up one much more mundane (though perhaps equally as destructive): “irrational”.
Or at least that’s how I use the word “evil”. You’re free to use it differently such that it would apply, but then your disagreement with me and JoshuaZ would evaporate into a fog of semantics (as many or most do).
There is a difference in actual opinion. It is not excessively important right now given how little power we have over this scenario. It would become important if we were, for example, choosing where the law should place the boundary of ‘libel’ and related laws.
I don’t understand how the second two sentences support the first.
They aren’t supposed to. Try reading again without that assumption.
I assume you mean something else by “disgraceful”
“Shockingly unacceptable” or “shameful”.
(very destructive and necessary to prevent or whatever), thus as often is the case the disagreement boils down to miscommunication by both parties.
And the gist of my last reply was that there is actually slightly more to the (unimportant) disagreement than miscommunication even though it is nice when things work out that way.
Notice how the perspective changes in your sentence:
I am fully aware of the relevance of perspective and repeat that ‘sincere’ false beliefs don’t carry nearly as much moral weight with me as excuses these days. Please refer to Robin Hanson and ‘Homo Hypocritus’ for more information.
They aren’t supposed to. Try reading again without that assumption.
OK. The disagreement might be instructive in some way though. I doubt anybody involved in this thought this disagreement on this forum was relevant for the actual parties involved.
BTW, you might want to add a “though” or something to the second sentence next time you say something similar: “It is not excessively important right now though given how little power we have over this scenario”. Or a “but”: “But it is not excessively important right now given how little power we have over this scenario.”
The reason is that my misunderstanding was not atypical. Statements directly next to each other often imply that sort of relationship. A conjunction (“but”, “though”, “and”, or whatever) would be necessary to make sure the reader knew the second two sentences weren’t supposed to support the first.
“Shockingly unacceptable” or “shameful”.
In comparison to what? Normal human behavior?
And the gist of my last reply was that there is actually slightly more to the (unimportant) disagreement than miscommunication even though it is nice when things work out that way.
And the gist of my reply to your last reply was that I disagree with that. Review it if necessary.
I am fully aware of the relevance of perspective and repeat that ‘sincere’ false beliefs don’t carry nearly as much moral weight with me as excuses these days. Please refer to Robin Hanson and ‘Homo Hypocritus’ for more information.
I was making a semantic point, not a moral one. Your perspective-shifting sentence made it seem like the ordinary definition of “evil” fit, but making the perspective stay on them showed that it didn’t.
Saying that their actions are evil whether intentionally harmful to innocents or not isn’t a moral point that requires a citation; it’s merely an idiosyncratic definition.
Saying that their actions are evil whether intentionally harmful to innocents or not isn’t a moral point that requires a citation; it’s merely an idiosyncratic definition.
I disagree strongly with both your argument and conclusion. Self delusion is not a get-out-of-ever-being-immoral free card. (Unlike most of the rest of this whole conversation tree) this point is a hugely important one to me and does not rely on idiosyncratic definitions.
If you are considering a species which is capable of constructing sincere but false beliefs for pragmatic purposes basing a morality entirely around whether individuals ‘believe’ they are doing something wrong is outright absurd!
I disagree strongly with both your argument and conclusion. Self delusion is not a get-out-of-ever-being-immoral free card.
I don’t see how the second sentence supports the first. I certainly wouldn’t declare that self-delusion is a “get-out-of-ever-being-immoral free card” either, though the word “moral” is such a fast-moving target that I don’t think I would even use it in the first place.
If you are considering a species which is capable of constructing sincere but false beliefs for pragmatic purposes basing a morality entirely around whether individuals ‘believe’ they are doing something wrong is outright absurd!
I’m certainly not doing that. Again the disagreement proves ephemeral. From the beginning I was simply clarifying that you and JoshuaZ were interpreting the two key terms differently (“disgraceful” and “evil”), which led to a fake disagreement.
This conversation was originally about whether their behavior was “disgraceful” and “evil” (which it was under your definitions but wasn’t under JoshuaZ’s), but now you’ve switched to arguing that self-deluded, socially destructive behavior is in fact nevertheless immoral. Well I guess I would agree with that, and I don’t see why JoshuaZ wouldn’t either.
I actually wasn’t taking sides on which definition of “evil” to use. I usually try to avoid that word anyway because of its propensity to stir emotion.
It could be a matter of degree. Indeed, wedrifid seems to be using it that way. But JoshuaZ seemed to be interpreting it differently: to mean that the Kerchers didn’t in fact sincerely believe that Knox and Sollecito murdered their daughter.
In other words, to wedrifid “evil” describes the act and its potential consequences, but to JoshuaZ it connotes their state of mind. The whole “disagreement” is nothing more than a miscommunication. Or so I have been arguing.
But now wedrifid is talking about an entirely new term: “moral”. I have no pet definition for this term, and he seems to be making a good point in saying, “considering a species which is capable of constructing sincere but false beliefs for pragmatic purposes basing a morality entirely around whether individuals ‘believe’ they are doing something wrong is outright absurd”, so I agreed.
I interpreted Wedrifid’s usage of the term “evil” as roughly, “very, very immoral”. I would be surprised if anyone would disagree that one has a moral duty to know as much as possible the true facts of a matter before going about destroying someone else due to those facts. So in so far as the Kerchers have failed to know what is going on (completely failed) they have (completely) failed to be moral.
It’s understandable for people to want other people’s stuff, have sex and to eliminate rivals, for example. That doesn’t make the behaviours involved less disgraceful or necessary to prevent.
Guessing I’m misunderstanding—but do you mean to say that having sex is disgraceful and needs to be prevented?
Guessing I’m misunderstanding—but do you mean to say that having sex is disgraceful and needs to be prevented?
Um… imagine the syntax resolves to something like:
It’s understandable for people to want {other people’s stuff, have sex and to eliminate rivals}. Which is a delicate way of saying that desires to steal, rape and murder are understandable. I didn’t say rape because it is dangerous to even admit to ‘understanding’ or ‘empathizing with desires to do awful things’ in the same sentence as rape even in the context of saying things are disgraceful, evil and to be prevented.
The model of the reaction of the Kercher family as presented by JoshuaZ and sound bites presented by linked news sources who want to say exciting things. Any relationship to the behaviour of actual Kercher’s should be considered mostly coincidental.
OK, I understand you are reacting to the media’s model of the reaction, provided with the sound bytes. However, there didn’t seem to be anything there. Their comments were pretty bland.
Being disappointed and shocked about and disbelieving of a verdict doesn’t seem harmful. What am I missing?
I think I can resolve this. JoshuaZ would almost definitely admit that they were being irrational. What he disagrees with is you going further and calling it disgraceful and evil.
So what’s the difference? He seems to have pinpointed the former term as implying that they’re trying to do harm, and the latter one as adding a whole slew of extra layers of incompetence or idiocy. He argued that they aren’t targeting somebody they think is innocent (thus they’re not “evil”), and that their failure of irrationality was understandable (therefore not “disgraceful”). That’s it.
He disagreed with you by arguing that their behavior isn’t intentionally bad (as “evil” seems to imply), and that it’s much more excusable than what “disgraceful” seems to connote. But you on the other hand seem to be using these terms not to make them sound like they want to harm an innocent person or are stupider than they are, but simply to stress just how destructive this sort of behavior is and can be.
As often is the case, the disagreement seems to boil down to simple miscommunication. If I’m right in my (somewhat cursory) assessment, then there’s no actual difference of opinion, and this is just yet another mundane example of the words getting in the way.
There is a difference in actual opinion. It is not excessively important right now given how little power we have over this scenario. It would become important if we were, for example, choosing where the law should place the boundary of ‘libel’ and related laws.
That’s a big ‘it’. I understand why humans do an awful lot of the things they do and quite often empathize with them. It’s understandable for people to want other people’s stuff, have sex and to eliminate rivals, for example. That doesn’t make the behaviours involved less disgraceful or necessary to prevent.
They are trying to do harm. They are trying to destroy the lives of some scapegoats.
I don’t understand how the second two sentences support the first.
What’s “disgraceful” mean to you? To JoshuaZ it meant unusually idiotic and irrational. He argued that this isn’t the case; it’s very usual (“understandable”).
I assume you mean something else by “disgraceful” (very destructive and necessary to prevent or whatever), thus as often is the case the disagreement boils down to miscommunication by both parties.
No, they’re trying to destroy the lives of who they think murdered their daughter. That’s certainly not a case of trying to harm who they think an innocent person (which is the ordinary interpretation of “evil” and how JoshuaZ seems to have interpreted it).
Notice how the perspective changes in your sentence:
This is from their perspective. It’s a statement about their state of mind: they want to destroy these people’s lives.
But now it’s from your point of view. It’s a statement about your state of mind: they’re innocent people being targeted for emotional reasons (or more precisely, people with no or not enough evidence against them to be criminalized).
A statement that stays on their perspective (as opposed to quietly switching to yours at the end) would read like this: “They are trying to destroy the lives of the people who they think brutally murdered their daughter.” And with that it loses the “evil” flavor and picks up one much more mundane (though perhaps equally as destructive): “irrational”.
Or at least that’s how I use the word “evil”. You’re free to use it differently such that it would apply, but then your disagreement with me and JoshuaZ would evaporate into a fog of semantics (as many or most do).
They aren’t supposed to. Try reading again without that assumption.
“Shockingly unacceptable” or “shameful”.
And the gist of my last reply was that there is actually slightly more to the (unimportant) disagreement than miscommunication even though it is nice when things work out that way.
I am fully aware of the relevance of perspective and repeat that ‘sincere’ false beliefs don’t carry nearly as much moral weight with me as excuses these days. Please refer to Robin Hanson and ‘Homo Hypocritus’ for more information.
OK. The disagreement might be instructive in some way though. I doubt anybody involved in this thought this disagreement on this forum was relevant for the actual parties involved.
BTW, you might want to add a “though” or something to the second sentence next time you say something similar: “It is not excessively important right now though given how little power we have over this scenario”. Or a “but”: “But it is not excessively important right now given how little power we have over this scenario.”
The reason is that my misunderstanding was not atypical. Statements directly next to each other often imply that sort of relationship. A conjunction (“but”, “though”, “and”, or whatever) would be necessary to make sure the reader knew the second two sentences weren’t supposed to support the first.
In comparison to what? Normal human behavior?
And the gist of my reply to your last reply was that I disagree with that. Review it if necessary.
I was making a semantic point, not a moral one. Your perspective-shifting sentence made it seem like the ordinary definition of “evil” fit, but making the perspective stay on them showed that it didn’t.
Saying that their actions are evil whether intentionally harmful to innocents or not isn’t a moral point that requires a citation; it’s merely an idiosyncratic definition.
I disagree strongly with both your argument and conclusion. Self delusion is not a get-out-of-ever-being-immoral free card. (Unlike most of the rest of this whole conversation tree) this point is a hugely important one to me and does not rely on idiosyncratic definitions.
If you are considering a species which is capable of constructing sincere but false beliefs for pragmatic purposes basing a morality entirely around whether individuals ‘believe’ they are doing something wrong is outright absurd!
I don’t see how the second sentence supports the first. I certainly wouldn’t declare that self-delusion is a “get-out-of-ever-being-immoral free card” either, though the word “moral” is such a fast-moving target that I don’t think I would even use it in the first place.
I’m certainly not doing that. Again the disagreement proves ephemeral. From the beginning I was simply clarifying that you and JoshuaZ were interpreting the two key terms differently (“disgraceful” and “evil”), which led to a fake disagreement.
This conversation was originally about whether their behavior was “disgraceful” and “evil” (which it was under your definitions but wasn’t under JoshuaZ’s), but now you’ve switched to arguing that self-deluded, socially destructive behavior is in fact nevertheless immoral. Well I guess I would agree with that, and I don’t see why JoshuaZ wouldn’t either.
So you agree their behavior is immoral but not that it is “evil”? Isn’t this just a matter of degree?
I actually wasn’t taking sides on which definition of “evil” to use. I usually try to avoid that word anyway because of its propensity to stir emotion.
It could be a matter of degree. Indeed, wedrifid seems to be using it that way. But JoshuaZ seemed to be interpreting it differently: to mean that the Kerchers didn’t in fact sincerely believe that Knox and Sollecito murdered their daughter.
In other words, to wedrifid “evil” describes the act and its potential consequences, but to JoshuaZ it connotes their state of mind. The whole “disagreement” is nothing more than a miscommunication. Or so I have been arguing.
But now wedrifid is talking about an entirely new term: “moral”. I have no pet definition for this term, and he seems to be making a good point in saying, “considering a species which is capable of constructing sincere but false beliefs for pragmatic purposes basing a morality entirely around whether individuals ‘believe’ they are doing something wrong is outright absurd”, so I agreed.
I interpreted Wedrifid’s usage of the term “evil” as roughly, “very, very immoral”. I would be surprised if anyone would disagree that one has a moral duty to know as much as possible the true facts of a matter before going about destroying someone else due to those facts. So in so far as the Kerchers have failed to know what is going on (completely failed) they have (completely) failed to be moral.
I agree with all that.
Guessing I’m misunderstanding—but do you mean to say that having sex is disgraceful and needs to be prevented?
Um… imagine the syntax resolves to something like:
It’s understandable for people to want {other people’s stuff, have sex and to eliminate rivals}. Which is a delicate way of saying that desires to steal, rape and murder are understandable. I didn’t say rape because it is dangerous to even admit to ‘understanding’ or ‘empathizing with desires to do awful things’ in the same sentence as rape even in the context of saying things are disgraceful, evil and to be prevented.
Ah. Clarified, thanks.
(And thanks for asking.)
Some of the things humans do to get sex are disgraceful things. Like rape, abuse of power, status games, killing sexual rivals, that sort of thing.
What specific behavior are you referring to?
The model of the reaction of the Kercher family as presented by JoshuaZ and sound bites presented by linked news sources who want to say exciting things. Any relationship to the behaviour of actual Kercher’s should be considered mostly coincidental.
OK, I understand you are reacting to the media’s model of the reaction, provided with the sound bytes. However, there didn’t seem to be anything there. Their comments were pretty bland.
Being disappointed and shocked about and disbelieving of a verdict doesn’t seem harmful. What am I missing?