For me the answer is yes, but my situation is quite non-central. I got into MIT since I was a kid from a small rural town with really good grades, really good test scores, and was on a bunch of sports teams. Because I was from a small rural town and was pretty smart, none of this required special effort other than being on sports teams (note: being on the teams required no special skill as everyone who tried out made the team given small class size). The above was enough to get me an admission probably for reasons of diversity I’m a white man but I’m fairly certain I got a bonus to my application for being from a small rural town.
Counterfactuals are hard, but going to MIT probably helped me to get into a prestigious medical school, leading to my current position as a doctor at a prestigious hospital. People at least pretend to be impressed when somewhat tells them that I went to MIT, despite my undergraduate field of study having absolutely nothing to do with my current job. Since I was lucky enough to be able to attend the university by doing the things I would have done anyway, I’d certainly say the effort was worth it.
I got into MIT since I was a kid from a small rural town with really good grades, really good test scores, and was on a bunch of sports teams. Because I was from a small rural town and was pretty smart, none of this required special effort other than being on sports teams (note: being on the teams required no special skill as everyone who tried out made the team given small class size).
You say that, but getting really good grades in high school sounds like thousands of hours of grunt work, with very marginal benefit outside college admissions. Maybe it’s what you would have done anyway, but I don’t think it’s what most teenagers would prefer to be doing.
FWIW, for most people who are smart enough to get into MIT, it’s reasonably trivial to get good grades in high school (I went to an unusually difficult high school, took the hardest possible courseload, and was able to shunt this to <5 hours of Actual Work a week / spent most of my class time doing more useful things).
I have this sense people live in dark matter universes, where some social groups at uni talk to each other about the slog all the time, and some social groups talk about all the fun stuff they do with all of their extra the time. And these can both be true, just that they forget about each other.
Like, me and my roommate at Uni both came from the same high-school. He had such an easy time he started doing math research in undergrad. I had a horrible time and barely graduated. There’s both types. (I’d say he had a notably easier time at high-school than me too — well, I think he actually did much harder courses and got higher grades, so not easier exactly, but you see what I mean.)
My current guess is most people do a ton of work while at top unis and that it’s optimized for having that effect, but that the people who do best are the peak IQ folks who find it easy.
This seems wrong to me? Hard to say because it was so long ago but I imagine I spent at least 15 hours a week on homework. I went to a basically normal public high school, and while most of the work wasn’t hard for me (varying between mindnumbingly easy and moderately challenging), there was just so much of it that it took a ton of time. Sure I wasn’t ‘working smart’, and I was a perfectionist to an unreasonable level, and I cared too much about what my teachers thought of me, but I imagine none of those things are unusual for kids trying to get into good schools.
In my particular case it wasn’t really all that hard. I went to an extremely small school so classes weren’t tracked the way they might be at a larger school. Since I was much better at taking tests than my peers I didn’t really have to study to get A’s on tests. We didn’t even have all that much homework, though I guess it probably was hundreds of hours over the course of my high school career. I would have had to do that regardless though.
For me the answer is yes, but my situation is quite non-central. I got into MIT since I was a kid from a small rural town with really good grades, really good test scores, and was on a bunch of sports teams. Because I was from a small rural town and was pretty smart, none of this required special effort other than being on sports teams (note: being on the teams required no special skill as everyone who tried out made the team given small class size). The above was enough to get me an admission probably for reasons of diversity I’m a white man but I’m fairly certain I got a bonus to my application for being from a small rural town.
Counterfactuals are hard, but going to MIT probably helped me to get into a prestigious medical school, leading to my current position as a doctor at a prestigious hospital. People at least pretend to be impressed when somewhat tells them that I went to MIT, despite my undergraduate field of study having absolutely nothing to do with my current job. Since I was lucky enough to be able to attend the university by doing the things I would have done anyway, I’d certainly say the effort was worth it.
You say that, but getting really good grades in high school sounds like thousands of hours of grunt work, with very marginal benefit outside college admissions. Maybe it’s what you would have done anyway, but I don’t think it’s what most teenagers would prefer to be doing.
I’m actually quite nonplussed by the disagree votes because I thought, if anything, my comment was too obvious to bother saying!
FWIW, for most people who are smart enough to get into MIT, it’s reasonably trivial to get good grades in high school (I went to an unusually difficult high school, took the hardest possible courseload, and was able to shunt this to <5 hours of Actual Work a week / spent most of my class time doing more useful things).
I have this sense people live in dark matter universes, where some social groups at uni talk to each other about the slog all the time, and some social groups talk about all the fun stuff they do with all of their extra the time. And these can both be true, just that they forget about each other.
Like, me and my roommate at Uni both came from the same high-school. He had such an easy time he started doing math research in undergrad. I had a horrible time and barely graduated. There’s both types. (I’d say he had a notably easier time at high-school than me too — well, I think he actually did much harder courses and got higher grades, so not easier exactly, but you see what I mean.)
My current guess is most people do a ton of work while at top unis and that it’s optimized for having that effect, but that the people who do best are the peak IQ folks who find it easy.
This seems wrong to me? Hard to say because it was so long ago but I imagine I spent at least 15 hours a week on homework. I went to a basically normal public high school, and while most of the work wasn’t hard for me (varying between mindnumbingly easy and moderately challenging), there was just so much of it that it took a ton of time. Sure I wasn’t ‘working smart’, and I was a perfectionist to an unreasonable level, and I cared too much about what my teachers thought of me, but I imagine none of those things are unusual for kids trying to get into good schools.
That’s fair, I guess that’s more like hundreds of hours and I was thinking of more typical students when I suggested thousands.
In my particular case it wasn’t really all that hard. I went to an extremely small school so classes weren’t tracked the way they might be at a larger school. Since I was much better at taking tests than my peers I didn’t really have to study to get A’s on tests. We didn’t even have all that much homework, though I guess it probably was hundreds of hours over the course of my high school career. I would have had to do that regardless though.