As someone else already pointed out, “progressive” doesn’t mean “approving of all new things” (and in the context of taxation it’s only a verbal coincidence that progressive politics tends to go with liking progressive taxation). Having said that, and in full awareness that anecdotes are little evidence: Hi, I’m a political progressive who has no objection in principle to GMOs and thinks we should be moving to nuclear power in a big way. (I have some incidental concerns about GMOs; e.g., they interact with IP law to provide exciting new ways for unscrupulous corporations to screw people over, which is a pity.)
and in the context of taxation it’s only a verbal coincidence that progressive politics tends to go with liking progressive taxation
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that progressives around 1900 called the method of taxation they favored progressive taxation.
Having said that, and in full awareness that anecdotes are little evidence: Hi, I’m a political progressive who has no objection in principle to GMOs and thinks we should be moving to nuclear power in a big way.
I haven’t said something about objections in principle, my statement was much weaker.
More to the point, I expect that a bunch of people on LW are pro-new-technology but that’s not true for the average left person and pretending that being pro-new-technology is something that’s an essential feature of progressive thought in the 21st century ignores the political realities.
On the other hand it was an essential feature of progressive thought 50 years ago.
In Marx idea of history, it’s a natural law that history moves in the right direction.
progressives around 1900 called the method of taxation they favored progressive taxation
The OED’s earliest citation for the term “progressive” in reference to taxation is from Thomas Paine’s “Rights of Man” in 1792. Its first citation referring to a person who favours political or social change or reform is from 1830. It’s possible that the latter meaning is older than 1792 (explanation on request) but, to say the least, it doesn’t appear that the term “progressive” as a description for taxation systems that tax richer people more dates from “around 1900″ or was chosen by people who identified themselves as “progressives” in anything like the modern US sense.
pretending that being pro-new-technology is something that’s an essential feature of progressive thought in the 21st century ignores the political realities.
I agree. I rather doubt that anyone—at least anyone using “progressive” in its current US-political sense—actually thinks otherwise, despite RichardKennaway’s remark above. (In any case, it seems clear from what he wrote that he doesn’t himself identify as progressive, and his description of progressives’ thought processes doesn’t appear to be the result of a serious attempt to understand them sympathetically.)
to say the least, it doesn’t appear that the term “progressive” as a description for taxation systems that tax richer people more dates from “around 1900″
Google NGram does show an uptick over that time period for “progressive taxation”. It’s the time known as the Progressive Era
I agree. I rather doubt that anyone—at least anyone using “progressive” in its current US-political sense—actually thinks otherwise, despite RichardKennaway’s remark above.
Have you read Moldbug? I do think that Moldbug argues that progressivism is about favoring the new. Cthulhu always swims left.
On LW there are a bunch of people that don’t actually agree with Moldbug about wanting to reinstate monarchy but who still accept Moldbug way of thinking about issues.
It’s the problem with history. Moldbug tell his history about the progressives of the progressive era and then proclaims that today’s left thought (the thought of the cathedral) is the same.
I do think that Moldbug argues that progressivism is about favoring the new.
So much the worse for Moldbug, at least if he makes a strong claim along those lines rather than something weaker and less controversial like “people who identify as progressive tend to be more positive about new things than people who identify as conservative”.
But I haven’t devoted a lot of time or thought to Moldbug, or to neoreaction generally.
I’m slightly lost track of what, if anything, we are actually disagreeing about here. I think it may at this point simply be about why various words have the definitions they do, which probably isn’t something that’s worth putting much further effort into.
You said you doubt that anybody thinks otherwise. I wanted to illustrate that there are people who do think otherwise. That’s means talking about the issue matters.
Sorry, I wasn’t clear enough: What I’ve largely lost track of is what “the issue” actually is. I do understand that at this particular point in the thread we’re talking about whether and to what extent progressivism is about liking new things. But I’ve forgotten (and haven’t much motivation to go back and figure out) why—if at all—that question is relevant to anything that matters. I’m pretty certain (and I’d guess you agree) that on the whole being a “progressive” (in the sense in which that term’s used in present-day US politics) is about other things more than it’s about liking new things.
But I’ve forgotten (and haven’t much motivation to go back and figure out) why—if at all—that question is relevant to anything that matters.
Understanding the political thought of the last few decades is useful and showing preconception to be wrong is also useful.
Particularly it’s useful to understand that the relationship of self identified progressives towards liking new things changed in the last 50 years.
(In any case, it seems clear from what [RichardKennaway] wrote that he doesn’t himself identify as progressive, and his description of progressives’ thought processes doesn’t appear to be the result of a serious attempt to understand them sympathetically.)
I confirm that this is accurate.
And I stand corrected that the virtue of newness in progressive thinking has got old, while the word “progressive” persists. What do they think of “progress” these days? “You can’t stop progress” was the saying back then. I haven’t heard it uttered seriously for a long time, and if it’s said at all, it’s more likely to be as a criticism of the opposite side by imputing it to them. First relevant Google hit here.
I’m fairly sure the majority of LW regulars who identify as progressives (myself included) would agree with these views about GMOs and nuclear power. However, I’m also pretty sure this is not true of the progressive movement at large, sadly. This is particularly frustrating because these two technologies are probably the most promising tools currently available for solving the problems many progressives purport to care most about.
As someone else already pointed out, “progressive” doesn’t mean “approving of all new things” (and in the context of taxation it’s only a verbal coincidence that progressive politics tends to go with liking progressive taxation). Having said that, and in full awareness that anecdotes are little evidence: Hi, I’m a political progressive who has no objection in principle to GMOs and thinks we should be moving to nuclear power in a big way. (I have some incidental concerns about GMOs; e.g., they interact with IP law to provide exciting new ways for unscrupulous corporations to screw people over, which is a pity.)
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that progressives around 1900 called the method of taxation they favored progressive taxation.
I haven’t said something about objections in principle, my statement was much weaker.
More to the point, I expect that a bunch of people on LW are pro-new-technology but that’s not true for the average left person and pretending that being pro-new-technology is something that’s an essential feature of progressive thought in the 21st century ignores the political realities.
On the other hand it was an essential feature of progressive thought 50 years ago. In Marx idea of history, it’s a natural law that history moves in the right direction.
The OED’s earliest citation for the term “progressive” in reference to taxation is from Thomas Paine’s “Rights of Man” in 1792. Its first citation referring to a person who favours political or social change or reform is from 1830. It’s possible that the latter meaning is older than 1792 (explanation on request) but, to say the least, it doesn’t appear that the term “progressive” as a description for taxation systems that tax richer people more dates from “around 1900″ or was chosen by people who identified themselves as “progressives” in anything like the modern US sense.
I agree. I rather doubt that anyone—at least anyone using “progressive” in its current US-political sense—actually thinks otherwise, despite RichardKennaway’s remark above. (In any case, it seems clear from what he wrote that he doesn’t himself identify as progressive, and his description of progressives’ thought processes doesn’t appear to be the result of a serious attempt to understand them sympathetically.)
Google NGram does show an uptick over that time period for “progressive taxation”. It’s the time known as the Progressive Era
Have you read Moldbug? I do think that Moldbug argues that progressivism is about favoring the new. Cthulhu always swims left.
On LW there are a bunch of people that don’t actually agree with Moldbug about wanting to reinstate monarchy but who still accept Moldbug way of thinking about issues. It’s the problem with history. Moldbug tell his history about the progressives of the progressive era and then proclaims that today’s left thought (the thought of the cathedral) is the same.
So much the worse for Moldbug, at least if he makes a strong claim along those lines rather than something weaker and less controversial like “people who identify as progressive tend to be more positive about new things than people who identify as conservative”.
But I haven’t devoted a lot of time or thought to Moldbug, or to neoreaction generally.
I’m slightly lost track of what, if anything, we are actually disagreeing about here. I think it may at this point simply be about why various words have the definitions they do, which probably isn’t something that’s worth putting much further effort into.
You said you doubt that anybody thinks otherwise. I wanted to illustrate that there are people who do think otherwise. That’s means talking about the issue matters.
Sorry, I wasn’t clear enough: What I’ve largely lost track of is what “the issue” actually is. I do understand that at this particular point in the thread we’re talking about whether and to what extent progressivism is about liking new things. But I’ve forgotten (and haven’t much motivation to go back and figure out) why—if at all—that question is relevant to anything that matters. I’m pretty certain (and I’d guess you agree) that on the whole being a “progressive” (in the sense in which that term’s used in present-day US politics) is about other things more than it’s about liking new things.
Understanding the political thought of the last few decades is useful and showing preconception to be wrong is also useful. Particularly it’s useful to understand that the relationship of self identified progressives towards liking new things changed in the last 50 years.
I confirm that this is accurate.
And I stand corrected that the virtue of newness in progressive thinking has got old, while the word “progressive” persists. What do they think of “progress” these days? “You can’t stop progress” was the saying back then. I haven’t heard it uttered seriously for a long time, and if it’s said at all, it’s more likely to be as a criticism of the opposite side by imputing it to them. First relevant Google hit here.
I’m fairly sure the majority of LW regulars who identify as progressives (myself included) would agree with these views about GMOs and nuclear power. However, I’m also pretty sure this is not true of the progressive movement at large, sadly. This is particularly frustrating because these two technologies are probably the most promising tools currently available for solving the problems many progressives purport to care most about.