I hypothesize that the distributional shift is due to properties of the social dynamics and individual mindspace that rat/EA circles inadvertently encourage, especially on wide-eyed newcomers. The same optimizing mindset leading to “burn-out / overwork / too much Huel / exotic unregulated diets / not taking care of your image / dangerous drug practices linked to work” around these spaces seems to me to be one of the central causes of these naive transitions.
I think I have a better understanding of what you mean by this now. I think you’re right that it’s present, but wrong that it’s the major cause of poor diet among vegans.
You describe vegan education happening informally in vegan-heavy spaces. EA is one of very few places where you can have a high density of vegans, but not have real vegan elders around to pass on the metis. I think that broke the chain of education, and left a lot of people bereft. And this is invisible to people in the established movement because if they were in those spaces, the spaces wouldn’t have that problem.
One reason I think this is that a friend tells me the exact same thing happened in straight edge punk, a movement that does not otherwise have a lot in common with EA. Another is that compulsive optimization doesn’t lead people to neglect something as simple as iron.
If the chain of education had been continued I think there would still be some problems caused by the optimization drive, and those would indeed have a fair amount in common with EA omnivore problems.
Just want to quickly flag that, based on my anecdotal experience, the vegan communities I was thinking of in which nutrition was thoroughly discussed didn’t involve learning from vegan elders either. They were mostly students, and had learned about nutrition from the internet, books, memes and visiting professionals, and in fact I recall them as being more heavy on the nutrition talk than the older vegans I’ve met (even if the elders also supplemented etc.). I feel like the adequate seriousness with which they treated nutrition came more from a place of positive and optimistic “let’s do things the right way” (to be a good example, to maintain some important boundaries that will allow us to help sustainably, etc.).
Another is that compulsive optimization doesn’t lead people to neglect something as simple as iron.
I disagree, I think unfortunately this and worse can happen in some environments and mental spaces.
I think I have a better understanding of what you mean by this now. I think you’re right that it’s present, but wrong that it’s the major cause of poor diet among vegans.
You describe vegan education happening informally in vegan-heavy spaces. EA is one of very few places where you can have a high density of vegans, but not have real vegan elders around to pass on the metis. I think that broke the chain of education, and left a lot of people bereft. And this is invisible to people in the established movement because if they were in those spaces, the spaces wouldn’t have that problem.
One reason I think this is that a friend tells me the exact same thing happened in straight edge punk, a movement that does not otherwise have a lot in common with EA. Another is that compulsive optimization doesn’t lead people to neglect something as simple as iron.
If the chain of education had been continued I think there would still be some problems caused by the optimization drive, and those would indeed have a fair amount in common with EA omnivore problems.
Just want to quickly flag that, based on my anecdotal experience, the vegan communities I was thinking of in which nutrition was thoroughly discussed didn’t involve learning from vegan elders either. They were mostly students, and had learned about nutrition from the internet, books, memes and visiting professionals, and in fact I recall them as being more heavy on the nutrition talk than the older vegans I’ve met (even if the elders also supplemented etc.). I feel like the adequate seriousness with which they treated nutrition came more from a place of positive and optimistic “let’s do things the right way” (to be a good example, to maintain some important boundaries that will allow us to help sustainably, etc.).
I disagree, I think unfortunately this and worse can happen in some environments and mental spaces.
Thank you. I’d want to investigate more before fully updating, but this does speak directly to my crux, and your position makes more sense now.