I quite like your point, now that you put it minus the rigidity. Your argument, first looked like what SilasBarta said. But I agree with you on trying to make this debating smarter.
There is certainly scope to improve the way comments are structured at lesswrong. May be showing who voted up a comment would be a good start. Then we can move to associating certain messages with a group of people who agree to that point. And yes, it is important to maintain flexibility while making these changes.
Given that we’re not supposed to be using voting to express agreement or disagreement, I propose that a second voting system should be put in place if we go this route.
we’re not supposed to be using voting to express agreement or disagreement
While I encouraged the use of voting mechanisms to in a more nuanced manner than mere agreement I am not willing to accept shame or guilt for doing so on occasion. Mostly because to do so would be a recipe for bitterness and contempt. Human instincts for hypocrisy and self deception being what they are people will vote based on disagreement even if they happen to do cry foul or sulk if others reciprocate.
For my part a vote means “I would like to see more posts similar to this one”. This is not quite the nash equilibrium of “this vote best serves my social agenda” which does come close to being the most useful model of the dynamics at times.Nevertheless, the “I want more of this” is a voting attitude which can be maintained with little frustration and serves to enable precisely mechanism that karma systems are intended for.
I propose that a second voting system should be put in place if we go this route.
My tangent aside, I totally agree with your conclusion and for more or less the same reason.
No disagreement: We’re strongly enough wired, I think, to use a simple voting system like this one in a particular way that a strong but unenforceable social norm against doing so won’t do anything but cause unnecessary emotional turmoil. On the other hand, the existing weak norm is useful and relevant, which is why I tried to evoke it—obviously not clearly enough, though.
I quite like your point, now that you put it minus the rigidity. Your argument, first looked like what SilasBarta said. But I agree with you on trying to make this debating smarter.
There is certainly scope to improve the way comments are structured at lesswrong. May be showing who voted up a comment would be a good start. Then we can move to associating certain messages with a group of people who agree to that point. And yes, it is important to maintain flexibility while making these changes.
Given that we’re not supposed to be using voting to express agreement or disagreement, I propose that a second voting system should be put in place if we go this route.
While I encouraged the use of voting mechanisms to in a more nuanced manner than mere agreement I am not willing to accept shame or guilt for doing so on occasion. Mostly because to do so would be a recipe for bitterness and contempt. Human instincts for hypocrisy and self deception being what they are people will vote based on disagreement even if they happen to do cry foul or sulk if others reciprocate.
For my part a vote means “I would like to see more posts similar to this one”. This is not quite the nash equilibrium of “this vote best serves my social agenda” which does come close to being the most useful model of the dynamics at times.Nevertheless, the “I want more of this” is a voting attitude which can be maintained with little frustration and serves to enable precisely mechanism that karma systems are intended for.
My tangent aside, I totally agree with your conclusion and for more or less the same reason.
No disagreement: We’re strongly enough wired, I think, to use a simple voting system like this one in a particular way that a strong but unenforceable social norm against doing so won’t do anything but cause unnecessary emotional turmoil. On the other hand, the existing weak norm is useful and relevant, which is why I tried to evoke it—obviously not clearly enough, though.