And I think it’s quite telling that the rate of depression is almost negatively correlated with standards of living.
Lack of exercise is a large contributor to this trend, as demonstrated by the well-established data that exercise is one of the biggest factors benefiting mental health. (I suspect you already agree with this point considering you previously mentioned sedentary behavior as one of the problems with modern life, but I’m citing some sources for any who want to verify the claim.) And even knowing this, it’s still difficult for me to make myself exercise regularly. Stupid psychology.
>if you search on Reddit, many other people have experienced similar things.
I try to avoid using anecdotal data to update my map. Social media tends to be biased towards negativity, so I would guess that those who are happy with their results with medication are a lot less likely to post their experience than those who have issues they want to discuss. That is not to say their issues are not relevant problems to address, but it does raise questions as to how large the proportion of people with undesirable side effects is relative to the proportion of patients who are satisfied with their treatment.
>”Logically”, a zoo animal should be happy because they have all the food and water they could ever want, as well as absolutely safety. But zoo animals are known to have high rates of depression and anxiety just like the general population in modern socities.
It’s logical only if one assumes that food, water and safety are their only important needs. Perhaps we haven’t made the effort to understand what they need that the zoo isn’t set up to provide. (Like, say, a few more square kilometers of running space)
It’s interesting that this does not apply to all animals in captivity. For instance, the types of fish that do well in captivity have a significantly longer lifespan on average (assuming proper aquarium conditions) than the same species does in the wild. For example: Clownfish in the wild on average live between 4 and 10 years. Clownfish in a well-maintained aquarium have been known to live more than 20 years. (Note that while their lifespan in the wild has been scientifically studied, the lifespan in captivity is entirely based on anecdotal reports)
I do agree with exercise. And yeah, knowing what to do is insufficient. If exercise is part of ones lifestyle it doesn’t feel like a bother, but if you’re told to go to the gym you likely won’t be motivated whatsoever.
The Reddit data proves that some people have had an experience (so it’s a proof by contradiction of the claim that such an experience doesn’t happen), you’re correct that it doesn’t give us an idea of the real prevalence.
We do know more or less what zoo animals need, it’s just cheaper to give them less than that. What humanity does seem entirely ignorant about is human needs and mental health in general. Consider for instance the impact of telling children “Santa knows if you’ve been bad” or “god is watching you”. Do we even know? What about the modern panopticon that is society? I found some related papers on this but they’re scarse and about specific cases like being watched at work.
How human beings function is perhaps the most important branch of knowledge in the world, and yet it’s neglected like this. Even modern psychologists can learn something from Buddha. You can’t say the same about fields like mathematics or physics, as these actually advance.
I agree about fish by the way. Longevity and well-being aren’t exactly the same, but it’s a fair point nonetheless. I think small fish are more on the simple side as far as animals go, though. This might be why fish is the go-to if you want to get away with animal cruelty.
I agree about fish by the way. Longevity and well-being aren’t exactly the same, but it’s a fair point nonetheless. I think small fish are more on the simple side as far as animals go, though. This might be why fish is the go-to if you want to get away with animal cruelty.
My conjecture as to why certain small fish do well in captivity is that (for those I’ve taken the time to research) their lifestyle is something along the lines of “find a cozy home in a rock/hole/anemone/coral and stay there waiting for food to come to you”. If an aquarium provides access to that same lifestyle + the added benefit of no predators, why wouldn’t they be better off? Humans only feel like an aquarium is abusive because our own psychology would go stir-crazy if we were trapped in a box all the time. But for an animal that will voluntarily live it’s entire adult life within a single square meter of reef? Why should it mind?
On the other hand, I do think its cruel to keep certain other type of fish in aquaria (e.g. tangs and other types of surgeonfish) because their growth will be stunted in an aquarium setting and in the wild they are grazers that might swim many kilometers in a single day.
What I mean by cruelty is fishing, bonking them on the head, boiling lobsters alive, eating squids while they’re still moving, forgetting to feed your goldfish while on vacation and throwing its dead body into the toilet, etc. Even some people who call themselves vegetarians eat fish. They seem to be a level lower than cows and pigs, which are a level lower than cats and dogs, on some imaginary hierarchy.
Agreed again, we should only keep animals whose needs we can more or less satisfy
People who eat seafood, but not the flesh of other terrestrial animals are pescatarian. Ethical (as opposed to environmental) pescatarians say fish and other marine life aren’t complex enough for fear or pain. Perhaps they call themselves vegetarians just to avoid having to explain pescatarianism.
Lack of exercise is a large contributor to this trend, as demonstrated by the well-established data that exercise is one of the biggest factors benefiting mental health. (I suspect you already agree with this point considering you previously mentioned sedentary behavior as one of the problems with modern life, but I’m citing some sources for any who want to verify the claim.)
And even knowing this, it’s still difficult for me to make myself exercise regularly. Stupid psychology.
>if you search on Reddit, many other people have experienced similar things.
I try to avoid using anecdotal data to update my map. Social media tends to be biased towards negativity, so I would guess that those who are happy with their results with medication are a lot less likely to post their experience than those who have issues they want to discuss. That is not to say their issues are not relevant problems to address, but it does raise questions as to how large the proportion of people with undesirable side effects is relative to the proportion of patients who are satisfied with their treatment.
>”Logically”, a zoo animal should be happy because they have all the food and water they could ever want, as well as absolutely safety. But zoo animals are known to have high rates of depression and anxiety just like the general population in modern socities.
It’s logical only if one assumes that food, water and safety are their only important needs. Perhaps we haven’t made the effort to understand what they need that the zoo isn’t set up to provide. (Like, say, a few more square kilometers of running space)
It’s interesting that this does not apply to all animals in captivity. For instance, the types of fish that do well in captivity have a significantly longer lifespan on average (assuming proper aquarium conditions) than the same species does in the wild. For example: Clownfish in the wild on average live between 4 and 10 years. Clownfish in a well-maintained aquarium have been known to live more than 20 years. (Note that while their lifespan in the wild has been scientifically studied, the lifespan in captivity is entirely based on anecdotal reports)
I do agree with exercise. And yeah, knowing what to do is insufficient. If exercise is part of ones lifestyle it doesn’t feel like a bother, but if you’re told to go to the gym you likely won’t be motivated whatsoever.
The Reddit data proves that some people have had an experience (so it’s a proof by contradiction of the claim that such an experience doesn’t happen), you’re correct that it doesn’t give us an idea of the real prevalence.
We do know more or less what zoo animals need, it’s just cheaper to give them less than that. What humanity does seem entirely ignorant about is human needs and mental health in general. Consider for instance the impact of telling children “Santa knows if you’ve been bad” or “god is watching you”. Do we even know? What about the modern panopticon that is society? I found some related papers on this but they’re scarse and about specific cases like being watched at work.
How human beings function is perhaps the most important branch of knowledge in the world, and yet it’s neglected like this. Even modern psychologists can learn something from Buddha. You can’t say the same about fields like mathematics or physics, as these actually advance.
I agree about fish by the way. Longevity and well-being aren’t exactly the same, but it’s a fair point nonetheless. I think small fish are more on the simple side as far as animals go, though. This might be why fish is the go-to if you want to get away with animal cruelty.
My conjecture as to why certain small fish do well in captivity is that (for those I’ve taken the time to research) their lifestyle is something along the lines of “find a cozy home in a rock/hole/anemone/coral and stay there waiting for food to come to you”. If an aquarium provides access to that same lifestyle + the added benefit of no predators, why wouldn’t they be better off? Humans only feel like an aquarium is abusive because our own psychology would go stir-crazy if we were trapped in a box all the time. But for an animal that will voluntarily live it’s entire adult life within a single square meter of reef? Why should it mind?
On the other hand, I do think its cruel to keep certain other type of fish in aquaria (e.g. tangs and other types of surgeonfish) because their growth will be stunted in an aquarium setting and in the wild they are grazers that might swim many kilometers in a single day.
That does sound reasonable.
What I mean by cruelty is fishing, bonking them on the head, boiling lobsters alive, eating squids while they’re still moving, forgetting to feed your goldfish while on vacation and throwing its dead body into the toilet, etc. Even some people who call themselves vegetarians eat fish. They seem to be a level lower than cows and pigs, which are a level lower than cats and dogs, on some imaginary hierarchy.
Agreed again, we should only keep animals whose needs we can more or less satisfy
People who eat seafood, but not the flesh of other terrestrial animals are pescatarian. Ethical (as opposed to environmental) pescatarians say fish and other marine life aren’t complex enough for fear or pain. Perhaps they call themselves vegetarians just to avoid having to explain pescatarianism.