Interesting! I wonder what it tells us that both Finnish and Swedish have been losing the construct of using the plural you (Finnish “Te”, Swedish “Ni”) as a formal/respectful form of the singular you. A consequence of both countries becoming higher-trust, or something else?
The obvious next step is the formation of a traditionalist chivalric order whose purpose is to preserve the older form of the language in which “Ni” (for the Swedes) is still used as a mark of respect.
I have read a different origin story for the Knights Who Say “Ni!” than the one in Wikipedia. Apparently, one of the Python team came across an old textbook for learning Swedish in a hotel he was staying at, which described the use of the plural “ni” as a polite singular, similarly to the practice of several other European languages.
But Swedish added an extra, strange twist. You could never actually use “ni”, because if you were speaking to someone to whom “ni” would be polite, it would not be polite enough. The proper way to address them would be in the third person, as in “would the vicar care for another cup of tea?” And an old woman of whom you knew nothing might be respectfully addressed as “mør” (“mother”).
Things have come to a pretty pass when knights can roam the countryside saying “ni!” to defenceless old women.
Perhaps one of the Swedes here can say whether this is true?
Hehe. :) I never heard about it. Here is something I found when googling:
“The Knights who say Ni are rumoured to be connected to the mock subtitles in the opening credits which advertise Sweden. In the Swedish language, “Ni” is second person plural (the equivalence of the English plural “you”) and used to be the proper form for adressing people outisde your circle of family and friends. This was however abandoned during the late 1960-ies/early 1970-ies in the so-called “du-reform” (“du” being the second person singular form). According to the rumor, the joke with the knights saying “Ni” and people’s negative reaction to it is a mockery of how the “ni” form was rejected by almost all Swedes, and thus no longer acceptable. Over the years the Pythons have gone back and forth between denying that the rumour is true, and confirming that it is indeed true.”
Egalitarianism, I’d say (which probably is correlated with trust). In Sweden the switch from the plural (“ni”) to the singular (“du”) form of you was done quite deliberately, as described in this article:
“The beginning of the du-reformen is associated with Bror Rexed, the then head of the National Board of Health and Welfare (Socialstyrelsen), who in his welcome speech to the staff in 1967 announced that he would address everyone as du, increasing the effects of the reform and bringing it to a more frequent use. The actual reform had started earlier, including the amended language in the major newspaper Dagens Nyheter. It was seen as a reform in a democratic and egalitarian direction.
First, authorities and influential circles tried rehabilitating the Ni in a so-called ni-reform, but most people could not bring themselves to feel civil using that. Then, almost overnight and dubbed the “du reform”, the system broke down and du (noted as informal above) became the accepted way of addressing any one person except royalty.”
Interesting! I wonder what it tells us that both Finnish and Swedish have been losing the construct of using the plural you (Finnish “Te”, Swedish “Ni”) as a formal/respectful form of the singular you. A consequence of both countries becoming higher-trust, or something else?
The obvious next step is the formation of a traditionalist chivalric order whose purpose is to preserve the older form of the language in which “Ni” (for the Swedes) is still used as a mark of respect.
They would of course be known as the Knights who say Ni.
I have read a different origin story for the Knights Who Say “Ni!” than the one in Wikipedia. Apparently, one of the Python team came across an old textbook for learning Swedish in a hotel he was staying at, which described the use of the plural “ni” as a polite singular, similarly to the practice of several other European languages.
But Swedish added an extra, strange twist. You could never actually use “ni”, because if you were speaking to someone to whom “ni” would be polite, it would not be polite enough. The proper way to address them would be in the third person, as in “would the vicar care for another cup of tea?” And an old woman of whom you knew nothing might be respectfully addressed as “mør” (“mother”).
Things have come to a pretty pass when knights can roam the countryside saying “ni!” to defenceless old women.
Perhaps one of the Swedes here can say whether this is true?
Hehe. :) I never heard about it. Here is something I found when googling:
“The Knights who say Ni are rumoured to be connected to the mock subtitles in the opening credits which advertise Sweden. In the Swedish language, “Ni” is second person plural (the equivalence of the English plural “you”) and used to be the proper form for adressing people outisde your circle of family and friends. This was however abandoned during the late 1960-ies/early 1970-ies in the so-called “du-reform” (“du” being the second person singular form). According to the rumor, the joke with the knights saying “Ni” and people’s negative reaction to it is a mockery of how the “ni” form was rejected by almost all Swedes, and thus no longer acceptable. Over the years the Pythons have gone back and forth between denying that the rumour is true, and confirming that it is indeed true.”
http://www.moviemistakes.com/film846/corrections
Here is another source.
http://blog.gashead.me/why-did-the-knights-who-say-ni-say-ni/
Egalitarianism, I’d say (which probably is correlated with trust). In Sweden the switch from the plural (“ni”) to the singular (“du”) form of you was done quite deliberately, as described in this article:
“The beginning of the du-reformen is associated with Bror Rexed, the then head of the National Board of Health and Welfare (Socialstyrelsen), who in his welcome speech to the staff in 1967 announced that he would address everyone as du, increasing the effects of the reform and bringing it to a more frequent use. The actual reform had started earlier, including the amended language in the major newspaper Dagens Nyheter. It was seen as a reform in a democratic and egalitarian direction.
First, authorities and influential circles tried rehabilitating the Ni in a so-called ni-reform, but most people could not bring themselves to feel civil using that. Then, almost overnight and dubbed the “du reform”, the system broke down and du (noted as informal above) became the accepted way of addressing any one person except royalty.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Du-reformen