When people talk about the importance of democracy, it is never democracy as it has ever actually functioned, with the politicians that have actually been elected, and the policies that have actually been implemented. It is always democracy as people imagine it will operate once they succeed in electing “the right people” — by which they mean, people who agree almost completely with their own views, and who are consistent and incorruptible in their implementation of the resulting policies.
Considering the above quote can be used to criticize nearly any popular political position I don’t think it is inherently mind-killing. Also since we all agree democracy is a good thing this isn’t even very political. The original article and context obviously does make it somewhat political.
Obviously you are right on that. I should have said:
Also [ we as a society ] agree democracy is a good thing this isn’t even very political.
What I really meant by this is that Democracy is something very well entrenched and accepted in Western society and even LessWrong. Dissent from democracy isn’t threatening heresy it is the mark of an eccentric.
Paul Graham has written quite extensively of why some things are considered “threatening heresy”, and other things mere eccentricity. Ultimately, he concludes that in order for something to be tabooed, it must be threatening to some group that is powerful enough to enforce the taboo, but not powerful enough that the can safely ignore what their critics say about them. Democracy is currently so entrenched in western civilization that it doesn’t have to give a fuck if a few people here and there criticize it occasionally.
The same is true of people who call for a dictatorship or any non-democratic form of government. They also always imagine it will be governed by “the right people”, and imagine all the things “the right people” could accomplish if freed from the need to listen to the “ignorant mob”.
Yes I fully agree. But it shouldn’t be underestimated that when it comes to non-democratic forms of government what kind of people are in power genuinely does have a big impact on how the country is run.
Wanting a philosopher king isn’t a bad idea if you aren’t mistaken about the philosopher king in question.
Wanting a philosopher king isn’t a bad idea if you aren’t mistaken about the philosopher king in question.
Or about your definition of “Philosopher king” in the first place. The character of Marcus Aurelius fit the preferences of those in Rome who dreamt of such a philosopher king; yet he was a poor ruler who displayed apathy—including going against his moral intuitions so as not to actually do anything, like finding gladiatorial games distasteful but making no attempt to limit them—and mediocre crisis management
Also since we all agree democracy is a good thing this isn’t even very political.
Do we agree on that? I think there are quite a few on LessWrong who are no more in favour of democracy than Ben O’Neill. Or by linking “democracy” to the Sequences post on applause lights, do you mean to imply you mean the opposite of that sentence? Yet it is embedded between two others apparently intended straightforwardly.
That democracy can reliably be used as an applause light is a sign that we as a society agree it is indeed a good thing.
Or, if I model human behavior correctly, it could also have been as sign that we as a society at one point agreed that it is a good thing but now agree that we agree that it is a reliable applause light. (But I don’t think democracy-approval has devolved to that level yet. We actually do seem to think it is a good idea.)
From the mission statement of the school at which I studied political science:
Through our teaching, scholarship and community engagement, we seek to mold global citizens with democratic values. Though our core is firmly based in the humanities—the critical, historical and comparative study of texts, practices, and contexts—we sustain strong ties to our colleagues in the natural and social sciences, the professional schools and beyond. From the multiple disciplinary approaches of history, philosophy and religious studies we investigate those matters that most make us human—mind, rationality and morality, spirit, and memory; our current areas of strength include: history and philosophy of science, intellectual history and history of philosophy, American and global religious history and cultures, environmental history and bioethics, women’s history and feminist philosophy, Native American history and indigenous epistemologies, history and philosophy of politics and the quest for justice; history, philosophy and politics of religion.
--Ben O’Neill, here
Considering the above quote can be used to criticize nearly any popular political position I don’t think it is inherently mind-killing. Also since we all agree democracy is a good thing this isn’t even very political. The original article and context obviously does make it somewhat political.
I don’t think everyone here would agree that democracy is a good thing.
Obviously you are right on that. I should have said:
What I really meant by this is that Democracy is something very well entrenched and accepted in Western society and even LessWrong. Dissent from democracy isn’t threatening heresy it is the mark of an eccentric.
Paul Graham has written quite extensively of why some things are considered “threatening heresy”, and other things mere eccentricity. Ultimately, he concludes that in order for something to be tabooed, it must be threatening to some group that is powerful enough to enforce the taboo, but not powerful enough that the can safely ignore what their critics say about them. Democracy is currently so entrenched in western civilization that it doesn’t have to give a fuck if a few people here and there criticize it occasionally.
The same is true of people who call for a dictatorship or any non-democratic form of government. They also always imagine it will be governed by “the right people”, and imagine all the things “the right people” could accomplish if freed from the need to listen to the “ignorant mob”.
Yes I fully agree. But it shouldn’t be underestimated that when it comes to non-democratic forms of government what kind of people are in power genuinely does have a big impact on how the country is run.
Wanting a philosopher king isn’t a bad idea if you aren’t mistaken about the philosopher king in question.
What kind of people are in power has a big impact under all forms of government, democracy included.
Or about your definition of “Philosopher king” in the first place. The character of Marcus Aurelius fit the preferences of those in Rome who dreamt of such a philosopher king; yet he was a poor ruler who displayed apathy—including going against his moral intuitions so as not to actually do anything, like finding gladiatorial games distasteful but making no attempt to limit them—and mediocre crisis management
Do we agree on that? I think there are quite a few on LessWrong who are no more in favour of democracy than Ben O’Neill. Or by linking “democracy” to the Sequences post on applause lights, do you mean to imply you mean the opposite of that sentence? Yet it is embedded between two others apparently intended straightforwardly.
That democracy can reliably be used as an applause light is a sign that we as a society agree it is indeed a good thing.
But not a sign that it is indeed a good thing.
Or, if I model human behavior correctly, it could also have been as sign that we as a society at one point agreed that it is a good thing but now agree that we agree that it is a reliable applause light. (But I don’t think democracy-approval has devolved to that level yet. We actually do seem to think it is a good idea.)
From the mission statement of the school at which I studied political science:
Even if society-at-large agrees something is good, the LW community may disagree in whole or in part.
Other things society-at-large treats as good and applause lights include:
Belief in belief
Deathism
Tabooing tradeoffs of sacred values like human life