Mind elaborating a bit for the curious? What is a “sin-on”? What led to your conclusions with regards to the ethics of eating meat? Seeing as I’m new here, I imagine it likely that there’s been a discussion I’ve missed out on at some point.
Yeah. A bit tongue in cheek, utility is to utilon as sin is to sin-on.
It’s like a very immature concept in my head and I’m still trying to map out what’s hiding in there, but it seems useful to me at the moment to figure out what a sin-on is made of and figure out order-of-magnitude type detail about things, as a way of trying to make reasonably consistent choices.
Well, not defining on my own. I’m deliberately asking a community of people who try to think about these sorts of things in clearer terms than normal about what sorts of considerations might be worth examining. Making a perfect objective suffering function doesn’t seem hugely worthwhile for me; I just want to be able to make orders of magnitude comparisons because that’s likely enough. [ed: on my necessarily messed up strange subjective human scale]
My core assumption is basically that some animals with brains have some degree of conscious experience, and can experience pain, discomfort, etc. I don’t think these things necessarily are perfect 1:1 matches with what the human experience analogues look like (both in how they are experienced and how relatively important they are to me or to the animal) - but visual evidence looks compelling enough to me that this claim looks likely true. I would need to dig into the mechanics of pain or something to get a clearer picture around that assumption, which may be a useful thing to do.
I’m sure the conversation where two people argue about this already exists on LW, just have faith that I will in fact look for it and read it, I am not particularly interested in engaging on a discussion about qualia at the moment.
I think there are probably better versions of farming that could exist, that would both sit better with me on the silly levels that do not get a vote and on other levels that matter more (e.g. optimizing slaughtering to reduce pain or something). Inflicted pain is an example of a cost that is being applied to animals that can be improved upon. There are other things like that that make farming meat objectionable to me.
On some gut level this actually matters to me. I have some amount of empathy for at least a lot of non-human animals, and whether a human has been involved in some transaction seems to make it matter more to me.
It might be possible that there’s a version of meat farming that doesn’t suck from my perspective. Like, if cows just dropped dead on their own accord after living reasonably good lives, and were immediately harvested, and that was somehow still excellent meat, that would probably have a large impact on how I looked at things. Is that substantially different than eating engineered vat meat? I’m on the fence.
I’m undecided on what you do with a bunch of useless animals you cannot release into the wild if you have engineered vat meat and other artificial animal products of sufficient quality at a sufficiently low cost. Maintaining far smaller populations doesn’t seem horrible to me.
Anyway, I recognize that I would probably kill a cow to get lots of dollars (which I could do useful things with), but probably not do it for 25 cents. Some animal products are useful. Eating a frustrating diet has a cost. If I must eat an egg a week to maintain normal brain function, then I guess I’ll eat an egg a week unless there are alternatives that aren’t too expensive, even if that comes at the cost of some chicken suffering. I just want to navigate those sorts of considerations and figure out what trades I am comfortable with.
Peccaton (from the Latin for “sin”). Hamarton or hamartion (from the Greek). Culpon (from the Latin for “blame”). Aition (from the Greek). Aliton (from another Greek word for sin). There are a bunch of other Greek words that denote wickedness, evil, badness, etc.
I meant more along the lines of I don’t have some coherent framework to slam this stuff into, but I want to be able to locally do some very ballpark comparison on things that I currently know too little about. Sin-on is the wrong word (it doesn’t reflect very well what it’s trying to represent), but it seemed amusing, so for the moment sin-on it is.
Mind elaborating a bit for the curious? What is a “sin-on”? What led to your conclusions with regards to the ethics of eating meat? Seeing as I’m new here, I imagine it likely that there’s been a discussion I’ve missed out on at some point.
I think it’s supposed to be a unit of sin.
Yeah. A bit tongue in cheek, utility is to utilon as sin is to sin-on.
It’s like a very immature concept in my head and I’m still trying to map out what’s hiding in there, but it seems useful to me at the moment to figure out what a sin-on is made of and figure out order-of-magnitude type detail about things, as a way of trying to make reasonably consistent choices.
Hah. Makes sense, if a bit of a heavy endeavor to try to define on your own.
Mind elaborating on your reasoning for not eating meat? I’m not critical of the choice—yet :P—but I am curious!
Well, not defining on my own. I’m deliberately asking a community of people who try to think about these sorts of things in clearer terms than normal about what sorts of considerations might be worth examining. Making a perfect objective suffering function doesn’t seem hugely worthwhile for me; I just want to be able to make orders of magnitude comparisons because that’s likely enough. [ed: on my necessarily messed up strange subjective human scale]
My core assumption is basically that some animals with brains have some degree of conscious experience, and can experience pain, discomfort, etc. I don’t think these things necessarily are perfect 1:1 matches with what the human experience analogues look like (both in how they are experienced and how relatively important they are to me or to the animal) - but visual evidence looks compelling enough to me that this claim looks likely true. I would need to dig into the mechanics of pain or something to get a clearer picture around that assumption, which may be a useful thing to do.
I’m sure the conversation where two people argue about this already exists on LW, just have faith that I will in fact look for it and read it, I am not particularly interested in engaging on a discussion about qualia at the moment.
I think there are probably better versions of farming that could exist, that would both sit better with me on the silly levels that do not get a vote and on other levels that matter more (e.g. optimizing slaughtering to reduce pain or something). Inflicted pain is an example of a cost that is being applied to animals that can be improved upon. There are other things like that that make farming meat objectionable to me.
On some gut level this actually matters to me. I have some amount of empathy for at least a lot of non-human animals, and whether a human has been involved in some transaction seems to make it matter more to me.
It might be possible that there’s a version of meat farming that doesn’t suck from my perspective. Like, if cows just dropped dead on their own accord after living reasonably good lives, and were immediately harvested, and that was somehow still excellent meat, that would probably have a large impact on how I looked at things. Is that substantially different than eating engineered vat meat? I’m on the fence.
I’m undecided on what you do with a bunch of useless animals you cannot release into the wild if you have engineered vat meat and other artificial animal products of sufficient quality at a sufficiently low cost. Maintaining far smaller populations doesn’t seem horrible to me.
Anyway, I recognize that I would probably kill a cow to get lots of dollars (which I could do useful things with), but probably not do it for 25 cents. Some animal products are useful. Eating a frustrating diet has a cost. If I must eat an egg a week to maintain normal brain function, then I guess I’ll eat an egg a week unless there are alternatives that aren’t too expensive, even if that comes at the cost of some chicken suffering. I just want to navigate those sorts of considerations and figure out what trades I am comfortable with.
Yes, by analogy with “hedons” and “utilons”, hypothetical units of pleasure and utility respectively.
Peccaton (from the Latin for “sin”). Hamarton or hamartion (from the Greek). Culpon (from the Latin for “blame”). Aition (from the Greek). Aliton (from another Greek word for sin). There are a bunch of other Greek words that denote wickedness, evil, badness, etc.
Haha. Nice.
I meant more along the lines of I don’t have some coherent framework to slam this stuff into, but I want to be able to locally do some very ballpark comparison on things that I currently know too little about. Sin-on is the wrong word (it doesn’t reflect very well what it’s trying to represent), but it seemed amusing, so for the moment sin-on it is.