If by this you mean “Alice would explode at being called a liar,” then I agree.
No, I mean she is not saying “Nothing” with the intent to deceive Bob into thinking that, in fact, nothing is wrong.
Communication is the transfer of information from speaker to listener: while I cannot reduce intent to the explicit meaning of words in this case I can reduce actual transfer to the explicit meaning of words (and a bit extra).
No. You really, really can’t. You are ignoring the information Bob receives from her tone of voice and body language. Bob may be literal minded but he is obviously not so literal minded as to miss this information. If he were he would not have insisted on that Alice tell him what is wrong.
Bob: “What, what’s wrong, Alice?”
Alice has already communicated to Bob that something is wrong with her body language, facial expressions or tone of voice.
Alice: Nothing.
But from the context that follows we know that Alice’s body language and tone of voice did not express the same thing. And Bob realizes it when he says “It doesn’t sound like that.”
Bob: “It … doesn’t sound like that. Really, what’s wrong.”
From Alice’s perspective this is a bit smug. She is thinking “I fucking know it doesn’t sound like that”. It is debatable at this point what Bob should have said, sometimes asking again will get an answer. But he knows that something is wrong and that she is not saying what—it is reasonable to expect a socially competent person to by now understand that what she really means is something like “I don’t want to talk about it, at least not now.
Alice: “NOTHING. EVERYTHING’S FINE.”
Alice is clearly pissed. Apparently she is yelling. And Bob clearly knows it. And Alice knows that Bob knows it. So Bob has certainly concluded that Alice means something else than literally “Nothing is wrong”. And then...
Bob: “Please, Alice. I want to know what I did. Just tell me.”
Bob has clearly figured out Alice is saying something like “I don’t want to talk about it, at least not right now.” He is now assuming he did something wrong and begging to be told what it was. But why is he persisting? He should already know that she doesn’t want to talk about it at the object level and doesn’t want to talk about it at the meta level. Yet by trying to talk about it on the meta level he is going against her wishes and starting a fight.
Now what Bob should do is just let it alone for an hour and see if she want to talk about it then. He has the right to not put up with her attitude if she won’t tell him what he did. I wouldn’t want to hang out with Alice when she is in this mood and if she expects him to without her explaining herself then he can reasonably say “I’m not putting up with the silent treatment all afternoon. Either tell me whats up or I’m gonna go do something else.”
As for whether or not Alice ought to expect Bob to figure it out—it may or not be a good habit—but Alice wanting that and trying to communicate it is not lying.
And while communication is extremely important not everything needs to be turned into a huge, dramatic discussion or debate. Alice may know she’ll be over it in a little while but starting a fight would lead to week-long estrangement. I don’t know which of them is “right”—I’m not sure that makes to talk about since these aren’t real people and there is not actual problem. I am not in agreement with TimS that Bob is trying to dominate Alice… I just think he’s being stupid.
Unfortunately, Silas’ original example is under-specified, so there are many different situations that could lead to it, or potential power plays on both sides. I’m going to make a guess that the scenario (in Silas’ imagination) occurred because of something Bob did or didn’t do that Alice didn’t like.
Alice is fuming, and she very much wants Bob to know. She feels that Bob should know better. That’s why she won’t tell him what it is. She wants him to figure it out for himself, and apologize to her. If he asks what is wrong as if he doesn’t know, and she has to tell him, then she admits that there was ambiguity in the original situation, or lack of knowledge on his part, that completely or partially exculpates him.
Alternatively, she might agree that there are exculpatory factors, but she still want to see if he will now realize what he did wrong and apologize without her having to spell it out for him. This approach might be especially important if he forgot something (maybe their anniversary), and she wants to see how long it will take him to remember.
Another possibility might be that she doesn’t want to tell him what he did wrong because she doesn’t want to look accusatory or nagging. So instead she just blast accusatory nonverbal communication at him until he understands that he is supposed to start admitting guilt.
If Silas is imagining the same scenario that is evoked in my mind, Alice is not trying to disengage from communicating with Bob all; she is trying to show her displeasure with him, and get him to (a) admit that he is at fault, and possibly also (b) apologize to what he is at fault for without her having to explain it, proving that he has either “learned his lesson” or that he isn’t trying to “play innocent.”
This interpretation leads me to agree with you that Alice is not lying, and that she is using implicit communication, but I think she may be doing it even more than you realize. Note that I take no position about who is in the right or in the wrong.
From Alice’s perspective this is a bit smug. She is thinking “I fucking know it doesn’t sound like that”.
Yes.
But he knows that something is wrong and that she is not saying what—it is reasonable to expect a socially competent person to by now understand that what she really means is something like “I don’t want to talk about it, at least not now.
If Bob has good reasons to expect that she is unhappy with him, then it’s not clear at all that she really doesn’t want to talk about it.
Alice: “NOTHING. EVERYTHING’S FINE.”
Bob has clearly figured out Alice is saying something like “I don’t want to talk about it, at least not right now.” He is now assuming he did something wrong and begging to be told what it was. But why is he persisting?
Under the scenario I’m imagining, it’s obvious why he persists. He doesn’t believe that Alice is serious about not wanting to talk, based on the context, body language, and tone of voice. He interprets her communication to mean “I don’t want to talk about the thing you did wrong unless you stop playing innocent about it and start groveling.” That’s why he starts groveling by admitting that he did something wrong… That might satisfy Alice, or she might want him to guess or admit exactly what he did wrong without her having to explain it.
In heated arguments, people often say and do things that they don’t mean, or to test the reaction of the other partner. Alice could be sincere that she doesn’t want to talk, but she could also be testing to see if Bob cares enough to find out what she is unhappy about, or if he will admit full culpability and apologize.
And while communication is extremely important not everything needs to be turned into a huge, dramatic discussion or debate.
Some personality types feel differently.
Alice may know she’ll be over it in a little while but starting a fight would lead to week-long estrangement.
Wait, what makes you think that Alice isn’t trying to start a fight? She could be defending a Schelling Point.
Depending on the nonverbals, her behavior could be an excellent way to start a fight, while pretending that Bob is the one instigating it by pestering her. If she really didn’t want to start a fight, she could either hide her displeasure better, or making it sound absolutely cold and serious that she doesn’t want to talk. The fact that Bob is following up with questions suggests that he thinks she is trying to either start a fight, so he tries to roll over on his belly by asking what he did.
I am not in agreement with TimS that Bob is trying to dominate Alice… I just think he’s being stupid.
This only way Bob is being dominating is if he knowingly did something majorly fucked up or abusive, and is pestering Alice and playing innocent while trying to cope with it. Short of that, there actually may be good contextual reasons for Bob to believe that Alice wants to continue communicating with him, but just wants him to take an apologetic role, or (if they both know she is upset by something other than him) a supportive role. If Alice is using passive-aggressiveness to try to put him into an apologetic and groveling role, then she is the dominating one (of course, whether this is justified depends on context). Unless Bob is obviously in the wrong, then he is being stupid by letting her get away with this power play, which gives her an incentive to get upset in the future any time she wants concessions from him.
Of course, this is only one possible reading of the situation; I just suspect that it’s a bit closer to what Silas intended that most of the other readings.
And while communication is extremely important not everything needs to be turned into a huge, dramatic discussion or debate.
Some personality types feel differently.
Alice may know she’ll be over it in a little while but starting a fight would lead to week-long estrangement.
Wait, what makes you think that Alice isn’t trying to start a fight?
Incidentally, I offered these interpretations because they were the right answers in particular instances where a girlfriend said “nothing” when there obviously was something. At least these are plausible interpretations if I believe our later conversations about why she said “nothing”. For these explanations the line by line interpretation is a little different—she is upset enough that it is hard not to show it or perhaps she is torn about whether or not to show it. Perhaps she just wants Bob to feel a little bad about it. Perhaps Bob is more observing than we have so far given him credit for. When she yells at Bob in her last line she is yelling at him because she is annoyed by his instance on talking about it, not trying to be obvious about being hurt regarding the object-level matter.
Of course, this is only one possible reading of the situation; I just suspect that it’s a bit closer to what Silas intended that most of the other readings.
I suspect Silas may have posted the comment without knowing or having a specific intended reading. Or he might be speaking as someone who has been a Bob in the past and genuinely isn’t sure how to interpret Alice. I also think by rendering Alice’s motivations explicit where making her too calculating. I suspect “nothing” often comes out just because it seems like the easiest thing to say at the moment not because of any well thought out strategic considerations.
I’m coming to realize that dominate is too strong a word for what I’m trying to say. I think Jack made basically the entire point I’m trying to make here. My only criticism is that “stupid” is a very broad description of Bob’s failure. Is there a more precise way of stating Bob’s error?
This conversation is a lot like that moment in Top Gun.
“I object” “Overruled.” “I strenuously object!”
That’s not going to work. Why should Bob expect it to work?
No, I mean she is not saying “Nothing” with the intent to deceive Bob into thinking that, in fact, nothing is wrong.
Did I claim deceit? “Nothing” is inaccurate. (I understand that labeling an inaccuracy a ‘lie’ is a political statement.)
Notice that, by TimS’s interpretation, she actually is attempting to deceive him- she hopes that he believes the lie that nothing is wrong so that she won’t have to discuss the issue now. If you want to question whether or not deceit is involved, bring it up with TimS.
You are ignoring the information Bob receives from her tone of voice and body language.
Mmm, I think that’s in there (as signified by the “and change”). It also depends what level we’re looking at. If we assume that Bob gets message 1: “Alice is mad” from her body language, then he asks her what’s wrong, and he gets the message 2: “nothing is wrong,” then he could suspect it is a falsehood solely from its mismatch with message 1. (This is probably made easier by a “falsehood” tag hung on message 2, but it isn’t necessary.)
Yet by trying to talk about it on the meta level he is going against her wishes and starting a fight.
Notice that any judgment about when the fight started is a political statement. Could we not say that Alice started the fight when she went against Bob’s wishes and didn’t explain what was wrong?
it is reasonable to expect a socially competent person to by now understand that what she really means is something like “I don’t want to talk about it, at least not now.
Is it reasonable for Alice to assume that Bob is socially competent, particularly when it comes to this understanding?
Alice is clearly pissed.
About what?
Bob and Alice clearly both have deficient models of each other. I get that, and the things Alice could be pissed about. You don’t need to explain basic human interaction to me (though both Bob and Alice could use some help). The problem is that, in this example, Bob wants to fix his model and Alice doesn’t put any effort into fixing her model. (Remember, the original contention was over taryneast putting forward the suggestion that “Bob is too lazy to take the time and effort to understand Alice.” SilasBarta concocted this hypothetical to suggest that the laziness of understanding is the other way around for many couples. TimS argued that Bob’s lack of laziness was actually a vice.)
but Alice wanting that and trying to communicate it is not lying.
Alice wanting that and not being able to communicate it effectively is fixable, though. If your man is too literal to pick up on your hints, tell him directly!
Alice may know she’ll be over it in a little while but starting a fight would lead to week-long estrangement.
In which case try out “I’ll get over it, give me some time.” (If it’s true, start with “It’s not anything you did.”) If pressed, respond with “Talking about it will just make me madder, and I’d like to not be mad as soon as possible.”
Did I claim deceit? “Nothing” is inaccurate. (I understand that labeling an inaccuracy a ‘lie’ is a political statement.)
Yes. It is inaccurate. It is inaccurate in the same way sarcasm in inaccurate. Calling what Alice says a lie is about as inaccurate as calling sarcasm a lie. Maybe we should taboo “lie”. We agree it is literally false and agree that it was not deceit. That leaves me not seeing what it was Alice did wrong (beside being suboptimal in her communication skills). She hasn’t seemed to commit a transgression since literally false statements are routinely acceptable as long as they are not part of a deception.
Notice that, by TimS’s interpretation, she actually is attempting to deceive him- she hopes that he believes the lie that nothing is wrong so that she won’t have to discuss the issue now. If you want to question whether or not deceit is involved, bring it up with TimS.
I’m not really concerned with what TimS thinks—lots of people have that covered. I’m sorry if this feels like I’ve put you in a double bind—having to say she is lying to dispute TimS’s position but also having to dispute my position that she was not lying (wasn’t my intention).
Notice that any judgment about when the fight started is a political statement. Could we not say that Alice started the fight when she went against Bob’s wishes and didn’t explain what was wrong?
Conceivably. Personally, I think expecting people to be prepared to explain themselves immediately is unrealistic if not unfair. But note I also added that I don’t think Bob can be expected to put up with Alice’s attitude for an extended period of time if she is not prepared to talk about it.
Is it reasonable for Alice to assume that Bob is socially competent, particularly when it comes to this understanding?
Shrug. This is information that hasn’t been stipulated one way or the other. But obviously a plausible explanation for the whole scene is that Alice thinks Bob is socially competent on this matter when he in fact isn’t.
The problem is that, in this example, Bob wants to fix his model and Alice doesn’t put any effort into fixing her model. (Remember, the original contention was over taryneast putting forward the suggestion that “Bob is too lazy to take the time and effort to understand Alice.” SilasBarta concocted this hypothetical to suggest that the laziness of understanding is the other way around for many couples. TimS argued that Bob’s lack of laziness was actually a vice.)
It can be the case that Alice is to blame for Bob not understanding her. It can also be the case that he is to blame. I have no idea how to evaluate that. I agree that if Alice is getting upset a lot and never saying why—and if she is getting upset about is not something Bob ought infer with a bit of empathy—then she is to blame for Bob not understanding her. Again, I don’t agree with TimS.
People here are projecting their truth fetishes (which I share) onto the rest of the world. Not ever map correction needs to be made right away and often they disappear into irrelevance. Not everyone has the same high verbal intelligence as this crowd and it isn’t fair to expect them to be able to put into words exactly what someone did wrong.
Alice wanting that and not being able to communicate it effectively is fixable, though. If your man is too literal to pick up on your hints, tell him directly!
Reasonable. Or break up with him if you need someone who can pick up on the hints. Alternatively, if your girl wants you to pick up on hints learn to pick up on them or break up with her. Or the two of your could find some sort of compromise.
But obviously a plausible explanation for the whole scene is that Alice thinks Bob is socially competent on this matter when he in fact isn’t.
I suspect that the typical mind fallacy is the primary cause of men and women not understanding each other.
People here are projecting their truth fetishes (which I share) onto the rest of the world.
This strikes me as an overgeneralization. In this particular scenario, an agent is attempting an ineffective strategy, which could be fixed by being explicit (Bob’s strategy is also ineffective, but the path for Alice to improve is less ambiguous. As I pointed out in my first comment, since Alice determines the success or failure of Bob’s strategies, she can decide to turn any strategy he tries into a failure). There are comparable numbers of people defending Bob and defending Alice, which suggests the truth fetishists (of which I am not one) may not be sizeable enough to stand for all people here.
There are comparable numbers of people defending Bob and defending Alice, which suggests the truth fetishists (of which I am not one) may not be sizeable enough to stand for all people here.
I was paying attention to upvotes but those seem to have evened out since I wrote that.
As I pointed out in my first comment, since Alice determines the success or failure of Bob’s strategies, she can decide to turn any strategy he tries into a failure).
The part where Bob looks at fault is when he keeps repeating the strategy that has already failed.
It is generally understood that a false statement is only a lie if the intent or expectation is that it be understood as a true statement. We have other words for different kinds of false statements: “fiction,” “joke”… By saying “lie,” “deception” was understood.
It is generally understood that a false statement is only a lie if the intent or expectation is that it be understood as a true statement. We have other words for different kinds of false statements: “fiction,” “joke”… By saying “lie,” “deception” was understood.
This is, of course, a social convention, but the application of “generally” to the subject at hand is questionable. Notice also that I was responding to someone who interpreted Alice as attempting to deceive Bob, which is not necessarily the case.
No, I mean she is not saying “Nothing” with the intent to deceive Bob into thinking that, in fact, nothing is wrong.
No. You really, really can’t. You are ignoring the information Bob receives from her tone of voice and body language. Bob may be literal minded but he is obviously not so literal minded as to miss this information. If he were he would not have insisted on that Alice tell him what is wrong.
Alice has already communicated to Bob that something is wrong with her body language, facial expressions or tone of voice.
But from the context that follows we know that Alice’s body language and tone of voice did not express the same thing. And Bob realizes it when he says “It doesn’t sound like that.”
From Alice’s perspective this is a bit smug. She is thinking “I fucking know it doesn’t sound like that”. It is debatable at this point what Bob should have said, sometimes asking again will get an answer. But he knows that something is wrong and that she is not saying what—it is reasonable to expect a socially competent person to by now understand that what she really means is something like “I don’t want to talk about it, at least not now.
Alice is clearly pissed. Apparently she is yelling. And Bob clearly knows it. And Alice knows that Bob knows it. So Bob has certainly concluded that Alice means something else than literally “Nothing is wrong”. And then...
Bob has clearly figured out Alice is saying something like “I don’t want to talk about it, at least not right now.” He is now assuming he did something wrong and begging to be told what it was. But why is he persisting? He should already know that she doesn’t want to talk about it at the object level and doesn’t want to talk about it at the meta level. Yet by trying to talk about it on the meta level he is going against her wishes and starting a fight.
Now what Bob should do is just let it alone for an hour and see if she want to talk about it then. He has the right to not put up with her attitude if she won’t tell him what he did. I wouldn’t want to hang out with Alice when she is in this mood and if she expects him to without her explaining herself then he can reasonably say “I’m not putting up with the silent treatment all afternoon. Either tell me whats up or I’m gonna go do something else.”
As for whether or not Alice ought to expect Bob to figure it out—it may or not be a good habit—but Alice wanting that and trying to communicate it is not lying.
And while communication is extremely important not everything needs to be turned into a huge, dramatic discussion or debate. Alice may know she’ll be over it in a little while but starting a fight would lead to week-long estrangement. I don’t know which of them is “right”—I’m not sure that makes to talk about since these aren’t real people and there is not actual problem. I am not in agreement with TimS that Bob is trying to dominate Alice… I just think he’s being stupid.
Unfortunately, Silas’ original example is under-specified, so there are many different situations that could lead to it, or potential power plays on both sides. I’m going to make a guess that the scenario (in Silas’ imagination) occurred because of something Bob did or didn’t do that Alice didn’t like.
Alice is fuming, and she very much wants Bob to know. She feels that Bob should know better. That’s why she won’t tell him what it is. She wants him to figure it out for himself, and apologize to her. If he asks what is wrong as if he doesn’t know, and she has to tell him, then she admits that there was ambiguity in the original situation, or lack of knowledge on his part, that completely or partially exculpates him.
Alternatively, she might agree that there are exculpatory factors, but she still want to see if he will now realize what he did wrong and apologize without her having to spell it out for him. This approach might be especially important if he forgot something (maybe their anniversary), and she wants to see how long it will take him to remember.
Another possibility might be that she doesn’t want to tell him what he did wrong because she doesn’t want to look accusatory or nagging. So instead she just blast accusatory nonverbal communication at him until he understands that he is supposed to start admitting guilt.
If Silas is imagining the same scenario that is evoked in my mind, Alice is not trying to disengage from communicating with Bob all; she is trying to show her displeasure with him, and get him to (a) admit that he is at fault, and possibly also (b) apologize to what he is at fault for without her having to explain it, proving that he has either “learned his lesson” or that he isn’t trying to “play innocent.”
This interpretation leads me to agree with you that Alice is not lying, and that she is using implicit communication, but I think she may be doing it even more than you realize. Note that I take no position about who is in the right or in the wrong.
Yes.
If Bob has good reasons to expect that she is unhappy with him, then it’s not clear at all that she really doesn’t want to talk about it.
Under the scenario I’m imagining, it’s obvious why he persists. He doesn’t believe that Alice is serious about not wanting to talk, based on the context, body language, and tone of voice. He interprets her communication to mean “I don’t want to talk about the thing you did wrong unless you stop playing innocent about it and start groveling.” That’s why he starts groveling by admitting that he did something wrong… That might satisfy Alice, or she might want him to guess or admit exactly what he did wrong without her having to explain it.
In heated arguments, people often say and do things that they don’t mean, or to test the reaction of the other partner. Alice could be sincere that she doesn’t want to talk, but she could also be testing to see if Bob cares enough to find out what she is unhappy about, or if he will admit full culpability and apologize.
Some personality types feel differently.
Wait, what makes you think that Alice isn’t trying to start a fight? She could be defending a Schelling Point.
Depending on the nonverbals, her behavior could be an excellent way to start a fight, while pretending that Bob is the one instigating it by pestering her. If she really didn’t want to start a fight, she could either hide her displeasure better, or making it sound absolutely cold and serious that she doesn’t want to talk. The fact that Bob is following up with questions suggests that he thinks she is trying to either start a fight, so he tries to roll over on his belly by asking what he did.
This only way Bob is being dominating is if he knowingly did something majorly fucked up or abusive, and is pestering Alice and playing innocent while trying to cope with it. Short of that, there actually may be good contextual reasons for Bob to believe that Alice wants to continue communicating with him, but just wants him to take an apologetic role, or (if they both know she is upset by something other than him) a supportive role. If Alice is using passive-aggressiveness to try to put him into an apologetic and groveling role, then she is the dominating one (of course, whether this is justified depends on context). Unless Bob is obviously in the wrong, then he is being stupid by letting her get away with this power play, which gives her an incentive to get upset in the future any time she wants concessions from him.
Of course, this is only one possible reading of the situation; I just suspect that it’s a bit closer to what Silas intended that most of the other readings.
Incidentally, I offered these interpretations because they were the right answers in particular instances where a girlfriend said “nothing” when there obviously was something. At least these are plausible interpretations if I believe our later conversations about why she said “nothing”. For these explanations the line by line interpretation is a little different—she is upset enough that it is hard not to show it or perhaps she is torn about whether or not to show it. Perhaps she just wants Bob to feel a little bad about it. Perhaps Bob is more observing than we have so far given him credit for. When she yells at Bob in her last line she is yelling at him because she is annoyed by his instance on talking about it, not trying to be obvious about being hurt regarding the object-level matter.
I suspect Silas may have posted the comment without knowing or having a specific intended reading. Or he might be speaking as someone who has been a Bob in the past and genuinely isn’t sure how to interpret Alice. I also think by rendering Alice’s motivations explicit where making her too calculating. I suspect “nothing” often comes out just because it seems like the easiest thing to say at the moment not because of any well thought out strategic considerations.
I agree your interpretation is plausible, though.
I’m coming to realize that dominate is too strong a word for what I’m trying to say. I think Jack made basically the entire point I’m trying to make here. My only criticism is that “stupid” is a very broad description of Bob’s failure. Is there a more precise way of stating Bob’s error?
This conversation is a lot like that moment in Top Gun. “I object” “Overruled.” “I strenuously object!” That’s not going to work. Why should Bob expect it to work?
Did I claim deceit? “Nothing” is inaccurate. (I understand that labeling an inaccuracy a ‘lie’ is a political statement.)
Notice that, by TimS’s interpretation, she actually is attempting to deceive him- she hopes that he believes the lie that nothing is wrong so that she won’t have to discuss the issue now. If you want to question whether or not deceit is involved, bring it up with TimS.
Mmm, I think that’s in there (as signified by the “and change”). It also depends what level we’re looking at. If we assume that Bob gets message 1: “Alice is mad” from her body language, then he asks her what’s wrong, and he gets the message 2: “nothing is wrong,” then he could suspect it is a falsehood solely from its mismatch with message 1. (This is probably made easier by a “falsehood” tag hung on message 2, but it isn’t necessary.)
Notice that any judgment about when the fight started is a political statement. Could we not say that Alice started the fight when she went against Bob’s wishes and didn’t explain what was wrong?
Is it reasonable for Alice to assume that Bob is socially competent, particularly when it comes to this understanding?
About what?
Bob and Alice clearly both have deficient models of each other. I get that, and the things Alice could be pissed about. You don’t need to explain basic human interaction to me (though both Bob and Alice could use some help). The problem is that, in this example, Bob wants to fix his model and Alice doesn’t put any effort into fixing her model. (Remember, the original contention was over taryneast putting forward the suggestion that “Bob is too lazy to take the time and effort to understand Alice.” SilasBarta concocted this hypothetical to suggest that the laziness of understanding is the other way around for many couples. TimS argued that Bob’s lack of laziness was actually a vice.)
Alice wanting that and not being able to communicate it effectively is fixable, though. If your man is too literal to pick up on your hints, tell him directly!
In which case try out “I’ll get over it, give me some time.” (If it’s true, start with “It’s not anything you did.”) If pressed, respond with “Talking about it will just make me madder, and I’d like to not be mad as soon as possible.”
Yes. It is inaccurate. It is inaccurate in the same way sarcasm in inaccurate. Calling what Alice says a lie is about as inaccurate as calling sarcasm a lie. Maybe we should taboo “lie”. We agree it is literally false and agree that it was not deceit. That leaves me not seeing what it was Alice did wrong (beside being suboptimal in her communication skills). She hasn’t seemed to commit a transgression since literally false statements are routinely acceptable as long as they are not part of a deception.
I’m not really concerned with what TimS thinks—lots of people have that covered. I’m sorry if this feels like I’ve put you in a double bind—having to say she is lying to dispute TimS’s position but also having to dispute my position that she was not lying (wasn’t my intention).
Conceivably. Personally, I think expecting people to be prepared to explain themselves immediately is unrealistic if not unfair. But note I also added that I don’t think Bob can be expected to put up with Alice’s attitude for an extended period of time if she is not prepared to talk about it.
Shrug. This is information that hasn’t been stipulated one way or the other. But obviously a plausible explanation for the whole scene is that Alice thinks Bob is socially competent on this matter when he in fact isn’t.
It can be the case that Alice is to blame for Bob not understanding her. It can also be the case that he is to blame. I have no idea how to evaluate that. I agree that if Alice is getting upset a lot and never saying why—and if she is getting upset about is not something Bob ought infer with a bit of empathy—then she is to blame for Bob not understanding her. Again, I don’t agree with TimS.
People here are projecting their truth fetishes (which I share) onto the rest of the world. Not ever map correction needs to be made right away and often they disappear into irrelevance. Not everyone has the same high verbal intelligence as this crowd and it isn’t fair to expect them to be able to put into words exactly what someone did wrong.
Reasonable. Or break up with him if you need someone who can pick up on the hints. Alternatively, if your girl wants you to pick up on hints learn to pick up on them or break up with her. Or the two of your could find some sort of compromise.
Good suggestion!
I suspect that the typical mind fallacy is the primary cause of men and women not understanding each other.
This strikes me as an overgeneralization. In this particular scenario, an agent is attempting an ineffective strategy, which could be fixed by being explicit (Bob’s strategy is also ineffective, but the path for Alice to improve is less ambiguous. As I pointed out in my first comment, since Alice determines the success or failure of Bob’s strategies, she can decide to turn any strategy he tries into a failure). There are comparable numbers of people defending Bob and defending Alice, which suggests the truth fetishists (of which I am not one) may not be sizeable enough to stand for all people here.
I was paying attention to upvotes but those seem to have evened out since I wrote that.
The part where Bob looks at fault is when he keeps repeating the strategy that has already failed.
It is generally understood that a false statement is only a lie if the intent or expectation is that it be understood as a true statement. We have other words for different kinds of false statements: “fiction,” “joke”… By saying “lie,” “deception” was understood.
This is, of course, a social convention, but the application of “generally” to the subject at hand is questionable. Notice also that I was responding to someone who interpreted Alice as attempting to deceive Bob, which is not necessarily the case.