The Mormons are a good comparison. They were dangerous lunatics in the mid-1800s—and Brigham Young was a murderous nutter on a par with David Miscavige. These days, they’re slightly weirdy but very nice (if very, very conservative) people; good neighbours.
You must mean “kill off” metaphorically, since I don’t recall any incidents in which Scientology has killed off Scientologitsts. In contrast I can recall many very recent incidents in which one old religion—Islam—has killed off adherents. But if “kill off” is a metaphor, then what is the literal danger from Scientology which is being referred to metaphorically as “kill off the host”?
I would caution against using “I don’t recall” to mean “I haven’t researched even slightly”.
I used “I don’t recall” to mean “I don’t recall”. Go ahead and bash me for failing to research the question but please don’t put your words and ideas in my writing.
I think David’s point is that when you say “I don’t recall X”, it matters very much whether you would recall an X to begin with, i.e., whether P(“I recall X” | X has happened) is significantly larger than P(“I don’t recall X” | X has happened). So when you offer up “I don’t recall X”, people assume you’re doing it because the former is larger than the latter.
But if that’s not the case, then you are, in effect, using “I don’t recall” to mean “I haven’t researched”, and this is why David was accusing you of blurring the distinction.
No, you’re inventing my meaning on the basis of a convoluted reading, and you’re neglecting the context. What I said was that I do not recall. And that is true. In context, the issue is whether Scientology kills off its host quickly. I pointed out that Islam, which kills many of its own adherents, is classified (by the preceding comment, implicitly) as not killing off its host quickly. Therefore for Scientology to be classified as killing off its host quickly it must kill more of its own adherents than Islam does. So that is the relevant question.
So: how does David’s evidence address this question? Not very well. A woman died from negligence while in the care of co-religionists. This can barely be connected to the religion itself. When I said that Islam kills off many of its own adherents, I did not have in mind adherents dying from negligence while in the care of co-religionists. I had in mind jihad. But if we want to expand the definition of killing one’s own host, let us do so: let us take into account the economic backwardness caused by Islam in the Middle East. That should greatly increase the death toll of Islam. Which does not, by assumption, kill of its host.
So, David’s evidence is hardly pertinent to the question. If we expand the definition of killing of one’s host to accommodate it, then we must do the same for Islam, which makes Islam look very bad indeed.
Now let’s turn to my own evidence. I am an imperfect observer, who is not aware of everything that goes on in the world. But it doesn’t matter whether I am perfect. What matters is whether I’m biased. David says that I did not specially investigate Scientology. No, I didn’t. And also, I didn’t specially investigate Islam. So as an instrument, I am balanced in that respect. And my readout says: I am aware of many dead from Islam, none dead from Scientology. David says I missed one. Oh? And so what? I missed many on the Muslim side too.
The probability of being Muslim is a lot higher (about 1000 times more?) than of being Scientologist, so I presume you’re talking about how many incidents you’d expect to have heard about per capita.
I wish that you were either a more concise or less interesting writer, so that I wouldn’t waste time reading a detailed argument about what’s-been-said.
The probability of being Muslim is a lot higher (about 1000 times more?) than of being Scientologist, so I presume you’re talking about how many incidents you’d expect to have heard about per capita.
That’s one adjustment that needs to be made, though not the only one. The other major adjustment that needs to be made is for proximity. That goes in the opposite direction. But it’s not worthwhile thinking about it with current data—the energy should be spent on getting better data. I just did that for Afghanistan. 38,000 is the most recent figure I found for dead Taliban, who I interpret as seeing themselves as fighting Islamic jihad, seeing as the Taliban is an Islamic theocracy. Divide that by 1000 and you have 38 Scientologists who, going by your figure, need to have died in armed struggle with—I don’t know—the police, maybe, in order for Scientology to match the proportional death toll in religious violence. I’m pretty sure that if 38 Scientologists had died fighting the police, I would have heard about it, even though I didn’t specifically research the question.
And the Taliban is I think just a small part of everyone who died in the last decade in what they considered to be Islamic jihad.
Update—the factor of 1000 is way off. It’s 25,000 Scientologists versus about 1.5 billion Muslims. If, say, 150,000 Muslims have died in armed jihad in the past ten years, then that’s one in 10,000, which comes to two Scientologists who need to die in armed struggle to match proportions. So being a Muslim is probably not significantly more dangerous than being a Scientologist. Further information could reveal that it is less dangerous.
The membership statistics have been lies for decades. alt.religion.scientology worked out it was around 50k in the late 1990s; I’m surprised it’s as high as 25k now.
I agree that David’s point about Lisa McPherson isn’t counterevidence to the claim you made (or rather, were implying based on not recalling). I was replying only to your statement
I used “I don’t recall” to mean “I don’t recall” … please don’t put your words and ideas in my writing
which was ridiculing the very idea that someone would read your “I don’t recall” to mean “I don’t recall and that is informative in this case”, when people have good reason to do so, as I explained.
If your objection to David’s point was that the McPherson case is not evidence of Scientology “killing off its host”, then you should have said so in your reply at that point (and I would have agreed) rather than merely flaunt your non-standard usage of “I don’t recall” and insult the people who thought you were trying to say something relevant.
rather than merely flaunt your non-standard usage of “I don’t recall” and insult the people who thought you were trying to say something relevant.
You have it backwards. I asked someone not to put words into my mouth. There were much better and less rude ways for him to make the same point. I am not going to continue arguing this at length because Jonathan Graehl just said he doesn’t like being forced to read who-said-what.
Please do not use value-laden and unsupported terms such as “murder” here. Yes, there are some cases of controversial deaths involving Scienology, but none of these could be described as murder of either the formal or less-formal sort.
The existence of R2-45 is rather unsettling, but apparently this ‘auditing procedure’ has never been enacted.
Parasite species that have been around a long time have mostly evolved not to kill their host very fast. With new species, all bets are off.
The Mormons are a good comparison. They were dangerous lunatics in the mid-1800s—and Brigham Young was a murderous nutter on a par with David Miscavige. These days, they’re slightly weirdy but very nice (if very, very conservative) people; good neighbours.
You must mean “kill off” metaphorically, since I don’t recall any incidents in which Scientology has killed off Scientologitsts. In contrast I can recall many very recent incidents in which one old religion—Islam—has killed off adherents. But if “kill off” is a metaphor, then what is the literal danger from Scientology which is being referred to metaphorically as “kill off the host”?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Lisa_McPherson—and she was hardly the first.
I would caution against using “I don’t recall” to mean “I haven’t researched even slightly”.
I used “I don’t recall” to mean “I don’t recall”. Go ahead and bash me for failing to research the question but please don’t put your words and ideas in my writing.
I think David’s point is that when you say “I don’t recall X”, it matters very much whether you would recall an X to begin with, i.e., whether P(“I recall X” | X has happened) is significantly larger than P(“I don’t recall X” | X has happened). So when you offer up “I don’t recall X”, people assume you’re doing it because the former is larger than the latter.
But if that’s not the case, then you are, in effect, using “I don’t recall” to mean “I haven’t researched”, and this is why David was accusing you of blurring the distinction.
No, you’re inventing my meaning on the basis of a convoluted reading, and you’re neglecting the context. What I said was that I do not recall. And that is true. In context, the issue is whether Scientology kills off its host quickly. I pointed out that Islam, which kills many of its own adherents, is classified (by the preceding comment, implicitly) as not killing off its host quickly. Therefore for Scientology to be classified as killing off its host quickly it must kill more of its own adherents than Islam does. So that is the relevant question.
So: how does David’s evidence address this question? Not very well. A woman died from negligence while in the care of co-religionists. This can barely be connected to the religion itself. When I said that Islam kills off many of its own adherents, I did not have in mind adherents dying from negligence while in the care of co-religionists. I had in mind jihad. But if we want to expand the definition of killing one’s own host, let us do so: let us take into account the economic backwardness caused by Islam in the Middle East. That should greatly increase the death toll of Islam. Which does not, by assumption, kill of its host.
So, David’s evidence is hardly pertinent to the question. If we expand the definition of killing of one’s host to accommodate it, then we must do the same for Islam, which makes Islam look very bad indeed.
Now let’s turn to my own evidence. I am an imperfect observer, who is not aware of everything that goes on in the world. But it doesn’t matter whether I am perfect. What matters is whether I’m biased. David says that I did not specially investigate Scientology. No, I didn’t. And also, I didn’t specially investigate Islam. So as an instrument, I am balanced in that respect. And my readout says: I am aware of many dead from Islam, none dead from Scientology. David says I missed one. Oh? And so what? I missed many on the Muslim side too.
The probability of being Muslim is a lot higher (about 1000 times more?) than of being Scientologist, so I presume you’re talking about how many incidents you’d expect to have heard about per capita.
I wish that you were either a more concise or less interesting writer, so that I wouldn’t waste time reading a detailed argument about what’s-been-said.
That’s one adjustment that needs to be made, though not the only one. The other major adjustment that needs to be made is for proximity. That goes in the opposite direction. But it’s not worthwhile thinking about it with current data—the energy should be spent on getting better data. I just did that for Afghanistan. 38,000 is the most recent figure I found for dead Taliban, who I interpret as seeing themselves as fighting Islamic jihad, seeing as the Taliban is an Islamic theocracy. Divide that by 1000 and you have 38 Scientologists who, going by your figure, need to have died in armed struggle with—I don’t know—the police, maybe, in order for Scientology to match the proportional death toll in religious violence. I’m pretty sure that if 38 Scientologists had died fighting the police, I would have heard about it, even though I didn’t specifically research the question.
And the Taliban is I think just a small part of everyone who died in the last decade in what they considered to be Islamic jihad.
Update—the factor of 1000 is way off. It’s 25,000 Scientologists versus about 1.5 billion Muslims. If, say, 150,000 Muslims have died in armed jihad in the past ten years, then that’s one in 10,000, which comes to two Scientologists who need to die in armed struggle to match proportions. So being a Muslim is probably not significantly more dangerous than being a Scientologist. Further information could reveal that it is less dangerous.
I also assumed there were far more than 25k Scientologists.
Yeah, I’m surprised too. I’m basing 25k on this.
The membership statistics have been lies for decades. alt.religion.scientology worked out it was around 50k in the late 1990s; I’m surprised it’s as high as 25k now.
I agree that David’s point about Lisa McPherson isn’t counterevidence to the claim you made (or rather, were implying based on not recalling). I was replying only to your statement
which was ridiculing the very idea that someone would read your “I don’t recall” to mean “I don’t recall and that is informative in this case”, when people have good reason to do so, as I explained.
If your objection to David’s point was that the McPherson case is not evidence of Scientology “killing off its host”, then you should have said so in your reply at that point (and I would have agreed) rather than merely flaunt your non-standard usage of “I don’t recall” and insult the people who thought you were trying to say something relevant.
You have it backwards. I asked someone not to put words into my mouth. There were much better and less rude ways for him to make the same point. I am not going to continue arguing this at length because Jonathan Graehl just said he doesn’t like being forced to read who-said-what.
Ruin their life or mess them up mentally.
Check out Auditing Procedure R2-45. There are also a number of less formal murders attributed to them. Ask Google for “Scientology Murder”.
Please do not use value-laden and unsupported terms such as “murder” here. Yes, there are some cases of controversial deaths involving Scienology, but none of these could be described as murder of either the formal or less-formal sort.
The existence of R2-45 is rather unsettling, but apparently this ‘auditing procedure’ has never been enacted.
Okay, edited to use the less value-laden term “exteriorization”.