For me morality is defined as a set of my own axiomatic values
I’m parsing “morals” and “values” as equivalent terms (and I think you are too), so this statement doesn’t convey me any information about your definition of “moral” and “value”. I share your reading of “ethical” as more behaviorally focused.
I don’t perceive the point at which we disagree or diverge. Can you elaborate on what “values” mean to you and what distinguishes them from other preferences?
Well, the most obvious divergence is that for you morality is “not about what you would do. It’s about what how you wish people would act...”. For me morality is mostly about what I would do or would not do.
As to differences between values and other preferences, hmm… Let’s see:
Values are axiomatic. They are not internally derived from other preferences (though, of course, you can explain them externally).
Values are important.
Values are mostly stable and their change is usually seen as a big deal.
In case of a conflict between a value and a mere preference, value wins.
Well, the most obvious divergence is that for you morality is “not about what you would do. It’s about what how you wish people would act...”. For me morality is mostly about what I would do or would not do.
For me, “acting morally” is acting in such a way which is consistent with how you would have others behave (after removing the pathological “I wish others would give me cash” cases). It applies to myself and others
If for you, morality is only about what you would do, then you have no bases to judge the morality of others. This causes your definition of morality to diverge from the common one. Most people treat morality as something by which all people can be judged. You’ve got an unusual definition.
As to differences between values and other preferences, hmm… Let’s see:
By your description, your “values” are analogous to my “terminal preferences”. The difference is that I have terminal preferences unrelated to morality (my learning, my fun, my loved one’s happiness, etc) as well as terminal preferences related to morality (human learning, human comfort, etc with extension to some non-human entities), whereas all your values seem to class as moral. In my terms, you define yourself as one whose terminal preferences are all moral - a person who prefers to be maximally good by their own standards.
Unless you wish to be a perfectly moral person, with every action crafted to bring about good and none towards personal gain, either your values cannot be equivalent to morality, or your definition of morality includes selfish behavior.
(If you really do strive towards perfect morality, and if your morality is similar enough to mine, then that’s admirable. That implies that you are a force for an incredible amount of good.)
For me, “acting morally” is acting in such a way which is consistent with how you would have others behave
I see major problems with the Golden Rule (mostly stemming from the fact that people are different) but that’s a separate discussion.
you have no bases to judge the morality of others
Mostly correct. I can still judge the internal consistency of their morals as well as the match (or lack thereof) between what they say and what they do.
This causes your definition of morality to diverge from the common one.
Yep. That’s fine.
Most people treat morality as something by which all people can be judged.
Most people also treat morality as a set of rules sent from above. And, of course, I can and do judge people on the basis of my own morals. I just accept that they can and do have morals different from mine.
your “values” are analogous to my “terminal preferences”.
Yes, that’s close enough.
all your values seem to class as moral
Yes, but remember that my understanding of morality is different from yours.
a person who prefers to be maximally good by their own standards.
Well, of course, but I think I understand that sentence a bit differently from you. The problem is in the word “good” which I treat as pretty meaningless unconditionally and which has meaning only conditional on some specific morality which defines what is good and what is evil. Different moralities define good and evil differently. So technically speaking this sentence is correct, but in practice people with different morals will not perceive me as “preferring to be maximally good”.
or your definition of morality includes selfish behavior.
I am of the opinion that non-standard, completely personalized definitions of words should be avoided whenever possible, or it becomes impossible to communicate. My definition of morality stems from the way the word is commonly used.
And, of course, I can and do judge people on the basis of my own morals. I just accept that they can and do have morals different from mine.
This statement applies to me as well. However, earlier you said, ” For me morality is mostly about what I would do or would not do.” This means you cannot even judge others on the basis of your own morals! (When I say that moral instincts are the way one would prefer a disinterested party to behave, that doesn’t preclude other people having different morals. It’s just a way to separate moral instincts from other instincts.
Why, yes, it does. I am not an altruist.
Yet you must have altruistic impulses sometimes, right? Sometimes you want to be nice to people. And sometimes, you want to do things for no reason other than that you personally benefit.
The definition I gave defines the former preferences as usually moral, while the latter as usually morally neutral. (A definition which is in keeping with the common use). Your definition seems to just lump everything together under “moral”. I like my definition of morality better because it seems to draw more useful distinctions and is also in keeping with the common tongue.
non-standard, completely personalized definitions of words should be avoided
It’s not a definition problem here, it’s a concept problem. My concept of morality differs from the standard one. I could, of course, start inventing new words for it or decorate the word with qualifiers, but that doesn’t seem to be called for in this case.
Words are used for communication—did I make myself sufficiently clear about what I mean by the word “morality”?
This means you cannot even judge others on the basis of your own morals!
I should have expressed myself better. What I mean is that morality for me is local rather than global. It’s a personal, individual yardstick, not a universally agreed-upon measure. That’s why it’s applied to me (or, for any given person, to her) and not to the entire world. Having said that, I see no problem with judging other people’s behavior on the basis of my own morals. If I believe doing X is bad it’s still true when person A does X.
Your definition seems to just lump everything together under “moral”.
Not really. Again, I probably should have been clearer. Notice how I talked about values (which are similar to your terminal preferences) and wasn’t keen on using terms like good and evil? That’s basically the reason—you can say that I lump everything under “moral” but then my “moral” is much wider and less judgemental that standard “moral”.
We can use the more common definition of morality, but in the territory of my mind there is no bright line between values which are “moral” and values which are “terminal preferences”. So it’s not particularly useful for describing my beliefs.
I’m parsing “morals” and “values” as equivalent terms (and I think you are too), so this statement doesn’t convey me any information about your definition of “moral” and “value”. I share your reading of “ethical” as more behaviorally focused.
I don’t perceive the point at which we disagree or diverge. Can you elaborate on what “values” mean to you and what distinguishes them from other preferences?
Well, the most obvious divergence is that for you morality is “not about what you would do. It’s about what how you wish people would act...”. For me morality is mostly about what I would do or would not do.
As to differences between values and other preferences, hmm… Let’s see:
Values are axiomatic. They are not internally derived from other preferences (though, of course, you can explain them externally).
Values are important.
Values are mostly stable and their change is usually seen as a big deal.
In case of a conflict between a value and a mere preference, value wins.
For me, “acting morally” is acting in such a way which is consistent with how you would have others behave (after removing the pathological “I wish others would give me cash” cases). It applies to myself and others
If for you, morality is only about what you would do, then you have no bases to judge the morality of others. This causes your definition of morality to diverge from the common one. Most people treat morality as something by which all people can be judged. You’ve got an unusual definition.
By your description, your “values” are analogous to my “terminal preferences”. The difference is that I have terminal preferences unrelated to morality (my learning, my fun, my loved one’s happiness, etc) as well as terminal preferences related to morality (human learning, human comfort, etc with extension to some non-human entities), whereas all your values seem to class as moral. In my terms, you define yourself as one whose terminal preferences are all moral - a person who prefers to be maximally good by their own standards.
Unless you wish to be a perfectly moral person, with every action crafted to bring about good and none towards personal gain, either your values cannot be equivalent to morality, or your definition of morality includes selfish behavior.
(If you really do strive towards perfect morality, and if your morality is similar enough to mine, then that’s admirable. That implies that you are a force for an incredible amount of good.)
I see major problems with the Golden Rule (mostly stemming from the fact that people are different) but that’s a separate discussion.
Mostly correct. I can still judge the internal consistency of their morals as well as the match (or lack thereof) between what they say and what they do.
Yep. That’s fine.
Most people also treat morality as a set of rules sent from above. And, of course, I can and do judge people on the basis of my own morals. I just accept that they can and do have morals different from mine.
Yes, that’s close enough.
Yes, but remember that my understanding of morality is different from yours.
Well, of course, but I think I understand that sentence a bit differently from you. The problem is in the word “good” which I treat as pretty meaningless unconditionally and which has meaning only conditional on some specific morality which defines what is good and what is evil. Different moralities define good and evil differently. So technically speaking this sentence is correct, but in practice people with different morals will not perceive me as “preferring to be maximally good”.
Why, yes, it does. I am not an altruist.
I am of the opinion that non-standard, completely personalized definitions of words should be avoided whenever possible, or it becomes impossible to communicate. My definition of morality stems from the way the word is commonly used.
This statement applies to me as well. However, earlier you said, ” For me morality is mostly about what I would do or would not do.” This means you cannot even judge others on the basis of your own morals! (When I say that moral instincts are the way one would prefer a disinterested party to behave, that doesn’t preclude other people having different morals. It’s just a way to separate moral instincts from other instincts.
Yet you must have altruistic impulses sometimes, right? Sometimes you want to be nice to people. And sometimes, you want to do things for no reason other than that you personally benefit.
The definition I gave defines the former preferences as usually moral, while the latter as usually morally neutral. (A definition which is in keeping with the common use). Your definition seems to just lump everything together under “moral”. I like my definition of morality better because it seems to draw more useful distinctions and is also in keeping with the common tongue.
It’s not a definition problem here, it’s a concept problem. My concept of morality differs from the standard one. I could, of course, start inventing new words for it or decorate the word with qualifiers, but that doesn’t seem to be called for in this case.
Words are used for communication—did I make myself sufficiently clear about what I mean by the word “morality”?
I should have expressed myself better. What I mean is that morality for me is local rather than global. It’s a personal, individual yardstick, not a universally agreed-upon measure. That’s why it’s applied to me (or, for any given person, to her) and not to the entire world. Having said that, I see no problem with judging other people’s behavior on the basis of my own morals. If I believe doing X is bad it’s still true when person A does X.
Not really. Again, I probably should have been clearer. Notice how I talked about values (which are similar to your terminal preferences) and wasn’t keen on using terms like good and evil? That’s basically the reason—you can say that I lump everything under “moral” but then my “moral” is much wider and less judgemental that standard “moral”.
We can use the more common definition of morality, but in the territory of my mind there is no bright line between values which are “moral” and values which are “terminal preferences”. So it’s not particularly useful for describing my beliefs.