Searle’s actually pretty brilliant and he’s mostly on the right side on this one. When you cast the debate as between Searle and Dennett, Dennett is obviously right. But in a broader context, Searle and Dennett are on the same side.
But I agree that there’s no reason to talk about the Chinese Room. Either you’re convinced by Dennett, or there’s no use talking further about it.
So you’re arguing, then, that there’s no point in trying to be “less wrong”? Either you’re absolutely correct or you’re “deeply misguided and silly” and can’t “engage in clear thinking”?
Your attitude doesn’t seem conducive to creating harmony amongst mostly like-minded people. Do you have many professional acquaintances?
ETA: that’s harsh—I disagreed with your comment and upvoted it, and within moments of being posted it was at −1. What’s with people around here?
So you’re arguing, then, that there’s no point in trying to be “less wrong”?
Not at all. If you have many arguments, it is useful to reduce the number of them that are invalid and increase the number that are valid.
An argument itself, though, can be only valid or invalid. If some section of it is incompatible with the rules of logic, it’s in violation of those rules and cannot be valid.
Either you’re absolutely correct or you’re “deeply misguided and silly” and can’t “engage in clear thinking”?
Again, not at all. A valid argument isn’t necessarily true, for one thing. For another, merely not violating the rules doesn’t imply correctness—if you never construct an argument it can’t violate logic, but you’ll never reach a true conclusion that way. People often refuse to investigate theses when they don’t want to have to acknowledge an unpleasant truth that they suspect lurks at the end of a chain of reasoning. That is an error of integrity, not (directly) one of logic.
Your attitude doesn’t seem conducive to creating harmony amongst mostly like-minded people.
Setting harmony as an goal is destructive and misleading. Seek the truth, and to ensure that everyone applies the appropriate standards of evaluation, and harmony will arise as a natural consequence. Try to create harmony directly and you become trapped in falsity and error.
There can be no ‘harmony’ between theists and anti-theists, for example. The two positions are incompatible. Logic and the available evidence support one and not the other. This community should not seek to create harmony of that sort; by insisting on rigorous standards of reason, the community requires that theists must either abandon their position or leave their association with the group.
(Or, of course, keep their beliefs secret and imply by silence that they’re not theists. It is difficult to identify such a strategy. LW does not have inquisitors...)
Not at all. If you have many arguments, it is useful to reduce the number of them that are invalid and increase the number that are valid.
Why did you assume that “he’s mostly on the right side on this one” meant that he has one “almost correct” argument, rather than meaning that most of his arguments are sound?
Because I know that most of his arguments are not sound, and I tend to assume that the people I’m speaking with are familiar with basic realities of the topic. So that interpretation is ruled out.
Why did you assume that thomblake would know (i) that Searle’s arguments are mostly not sound, but not (ii) that an argument either meets the standards of correctness, or it doesn’t? Certainly both (i) and (ii) count as basic realities for you.
Because 1) thomblake is usually pretty sharp, 2) I know he’s very interested in philosophy generally, and 3) Searle is well-known and has been taken down more often than I care to remember.
That addresses (i).
As for (ii), people almost always ignore that point, and frequently try to gloss over or deny it in arguments. It’s warm and fuzzy to “look for the good” in positions and it’s a common strategy to wear down resistance in opponents by ‘acknowledging their claims to be partly valid’ even when they aren’t.
His studies have taught thomblake well, but he is not a rationalist yet.
And yet, thomblake’s reply makes it clear that you would have been more correct to assume that thomblake would know (ii) but not (i). Interesting. ETA: Or not.
I pretty much agree with Annoyance’s response. I’ve argued about Searle with him before, which I think is evidence for (i), and I’ve disputed the relevance of (ii).
Searle’s actually pretty brilliant and he’s mostly on the right side on this one. When you cast the debate as between Searle and Dennett, Dennett is obviously right. But in a broader context, Searle and Dennett are on the same side.
But I agree that there’s no reason to talk about the Chinese Room. Either you’re convinced by Dennett, or there’s no use talking further about it.
There’s no such thing as being “mostly” on the right side, no more than an argument can be “mostly” logically valid.
Either it meets the standards, or it doesn’t.
So you’re arguing, then, that there’s no point in trying to be “less wrong”? Either you’re absolutely correct or you’re “deeply misguided and silly” and can’t “engage in clear thinking”?
Your attitude doesn’t seem conducive to creating harmony amongst mostly like-minded people. Do you have many professional acquaintances?
ETA: that’s harsh—I disagreed with your comment and upvoted it, and within moments of being posted it was at −1. What’s with people around here?
Not at all. If you have many arguments, it is useful to reduce the number of them that are invalid and increase the number that are valid.
An argument itself, though, can be only valid or invalid. If some section of it is incompatible with the rules of logic, it’s in violation of those rules and cannot be valid.
Again, not at all. A valid argument isn’t necessarily true, for one thing. For another, merely not violating the rules doesn’t imply correctness—if you never construct an argument it can’t violate logic, but you’ll never reach a true conclusion that way. People often refuse to investigate theses when they don’t want to have to acknowledge an unpleasant truth that they suspect lurks at the end of a chain of reasoning. That is an error of integrity, not (directly) one of logic.
Setting harmony as an goal is destructive and misleading. Seek the truth, and to ensure that everyone applies the appropriate standards of evaluation, and harmony will arise as a natural consequence. Try to create harmony directly and you become trapped in falsity and error.
There can be no ‘harmony’ between theists and anti-theists, for example. The two positions are incompatible. Logic and the available evidence support one and not the other. This community should not seek to create harmony of that sort; by insisting on rigorous standards of reason, the community requires that theists must either abandon their position or leave their association with the group.
(Or, of course, keep their beliefs secret and imply by silence that they’re not theists. It is difficult to identify such a strategy. LW does not have inquisitors...)
Why did you assume that “he’s mostly on the right side on this one” meant that he has one “almost correct” argument, rather than meaning that most of his arguments are sound?
Because I know that most of his arguments are not sound, and I tend to assume that the people I’m speaking with are familiar with basic realities of the topic. So that interpretation is ruled out.
Why did you assume that thomblake would know (i) that Searle’s arguments are mostly not sound, but not (ii) that an argument either meets the standards of correctness, or it doesn’t? Certainly both (i) and (ii) count as basic realities for you.
Because 1) thomblake is usually pretty sharp, 2) I know he’s very interested in philosophy generally, and 3) Searle is well-known and has been taken down more often than I care to remember.
That addresses (i).
As for (ii), people almost always ignore that point, and frequently try to gloss over or deny it in arguments. It’s warm and fuzzy to “look for the good” in positions and it’s a common strategy to wear down resistance in opponents by ‘acknowledging their claims to be partly valid’ even when they aren’t.
His studies have taught thomblake well, but he is not a rationalist yet.
And yet, thomblake’s reply makes it clear that you would have been more correct to assume that thomblake would know (ii) but not (i). Interesting. ETA: Or not.
It’s like theism. It’s obviously wrong, but most people either support it or don’t realize it’s obviously wrong.
Possibly my reaction was not perfectly calibrated for thomblake, but it works pretty well generally.
Cyan,
I pretty much agree with Annoyance’s response. I’ve argued about Searle with him before, which I think is evidence for (i), and I’ve disputed the relevance of (ii).
And it is true, I’m an irrationalist.
Huh. Once again I am schooled in the typical mind fallacy.