Jesus!* Your post provokes an emotional reaction in me, which I will now try to translate into something sensible.
I am irrational, trying to become less so. I’ve got a way to go. Also, I think I am less intelligent than much of the Less Wrong community. I’m sorry to say I don’t expect this to change soon.
It’s a continuum, not a discrete or binary division. There are people smarter and there are people more rational than you (for pretty much anybody who will read this.) So how can they accept you?
One of the things that drew me to Eliezer Yudkowsky’s writings and to Less Wrong was the profound moral component. As I understand it, his mission isn’t just for you smart folks, it’s for everyone, including those of us who may be deluded and irrational and of merely normal intelligence, or below-normal intelligence. For example, it wasn’t that long ago that he commented that cryonics (for example) should be for ” all human beings and, just in case, chimpanzees .” I could think of other examples of what I take to be the moral dimension of this forum. I think it’s fundamental to this forum.
* I don’t actually believe in Jesus. Just a way of signifying an emotional reaction.
Ah yes, well, I do have some moral values—I’m still very much against actions that hurt sentient beings, and I do believe that it is better off for society if everyone has some basic living standards (in fact, I think that society imposes far too many artificial barriers to let people experience “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness”—and then society uses “morality” as a way to justify this denial—it’s sort of like Puritanism). And I’m almost a vegan, for that matter. I just happen to have the morals that others tend to take issue with, which is why I’ve developed a strong aversion to the word “morality”, if not the concept. =/ The word “morality” has just been abused beyond recognition.
For example—cryonics. How are people really going to justify opposition to that? There are few utilitarian arguments against cryonics. Most of the arguments against them come from the instinctive “disgust” reaction, which is closely tied in with perceptions of moral violation. People will use moral arguments to justify why they’re against it. That’s one of the main reasons why I’m so averse to the word “morality”, because it is used so disingenuously.
In general though, I generally try to find all sorts of justifications to be tolerant to everyone (because I’ve often experience intolerance, and do not want to propagate the very thing that has hurt me so much). It’s as easy as that, so I easily accept people whoever they are (and I also often hate it how people often judge others based on intelligence).
There are few utilitarian arguments against cryonics
The cost involved is exorbitant and could be much better spent; as you point out it may also cause disgust reactions in your loved ones instead of promoting closure upon your death.
Or do you mean “against cryonics’ legality”, since happiness is rarely produced by banning wasteful extravagances?
That’s not really true. Sure, it’s out reach of most of humanity, so in that sense you’re right. But for the average middle-class person in the developed world—which is the majority of people who’ll ever read your comment—this is not true. A basic life insurance policy is easily within their means.
We are talking about a cost on the order of magnitude of $100k to preserve your body—about as much as the average American manages to save for retirement. A dozen times the cost of a standard funeral. Enough to save dozens of lives. You may not be able to be reanimated, and there may be large future costs of reanimation as well as curing whatever fatal diseases you may have.
The benefit, hopefully, is “enjoy long life in a high-tech future.” That may well be worth the expense to you. But if we are just optimizing utils in the world, we might focus on shorter-term goals. Even if we hypothesize that life in that future world is amazing, we could commission a eugenically-optimized baby in the future world rather than preserving our own flawed selves at great cost. The desire that the future beneficiary be me rather than someone else is not coming from a strictly Utilitarian place.
But for the average middle-class person in the developed world—which is the majority of people who’ll ever read your comment
Make that ‘in the US and a very few other countries’. I live in Israel, am middle class and can see myself becoming quite wealthy in the future, but—no cryonics for me.
Okay, sorry for my mistake. I easily accept people if and only if I feel like they’ll accept me first. But this is of little significance, because people won’t even talk to me if they don’t accept me. In reality, I’ll talk to anyone who wants to talk to me (and who won’t try to impose too many of their values on me).
There are levels of “acceptance.” Personally, I’m intimate with very few, friendly with far more, in theory I have good will towards almost everybody, and (also in theory) I think that in principle I could regard certain individuals as true enemies. At what level would you propose to “accept” people who are irrational?
Case in point—consider me! I’ve never met you and don’t know you in meatspace. We have LessWrong in common, so I’m closer to you in that way than I am to...very, very many people. However, I wouldn’t necessarily declare that very specific interest of mine just as soon as we met, assuming we met by chance. I’d probably stick to general pleasantries and conventional etiquette until I knew you a bit better. So what would you do with me?
Oh, good point. There is a point where I might get uncomfortable with irrationality, even if this irrationality did not manifest itself in intolerance (it often does, but in some cases, it is annoying at worst). But, of course, I’m not completely consistent. Some things, like believing in astrology, will make me quickly uncomfortable. That being said, a smart person who believed in astrology could conceivably convince me otherwise (just as I have a lot of respect for some smart Christians).
So what would I do with you? Hm, it probably depends on the context. I used to have a problem of getting attached to people far too quickly. And it actually seemed to work, for a while (young teenagers in the environment of school seem to be more open to fellow classmates). So I’d probably declare that interest of mine as soon as we met. But I’m trying to change a bit to the pleasantries and etiquette.
Jesus!* Your post provokes an emotional reaction in me, which I will now try to translate into something sensible.
I am irrational, trying to become less so. I’ve got a way to go. Also, I think I am less intelligent than much of the Less Wrong community. I’m sorry to say I don’t expect this to change soon.
It’s a continuum, not a discrete or binary division. There are people smarter and there are people more rational than you (for pretty much anybody who will read this.) So how can they accept you?
One of the things that drew me to Eliezer Yudkowsky’s writings and to Less Wrong was the profound moral component. As I understand it, his mission isn’t just for you smart folks, it’s for everyone, including those of us who may be deluded and irrational and of merely normal intelligence, or below-normal intelligence. For example, it wasn’t that long ago that he commented that cryonics (for example) should be for ” all human beings and, just in case, chimpanzees .” I could think of other examples of what I take to be the moral dimension of this forum. I think it’s fundamental to this forum.
* I don’t actually believe in Jesus. Just a way of signifying an emotional reaction.
Ah yes, well, I do have some moral values—I’m still very much against actions that hurt sentient beings, and I do believe that it is better off for society if everyone has some basic living standards (in fact, I think that society imposes far too many artificial barriers to let people experience “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness”—and then society uses “morality” as a way to justify this denial—it’s sort of like Puritanism). And I’m almost a vegan, for that matter. I just happen to have the morals that others tend to take issue with, which is why I’ve developed a strong aversion to the word “morality”, if not the concept. =/ The word “morality” has just been abused beyond recognition.
For example—cryonics. How are people really going to justify opposition to that? There are few utilitarian arguments against cryonics. Most of the arguments against them come from the instinctive “disgust” reaction, which is closely tied in with perceptions of moral violation. People will use moral arguments to justify why they’re against it. That’s one of the main reasons why I’m so averse to the word “morality”, because it is used so disingenuously.
In general though, I generally try to find all sorts of justifications to be tolerant to everyone (because I’ve often experience intolerance, and do not want to propagate the very thing that has hurt me so much). It’s as easy as that, so I easily accept people whoever they are (and I also often hate it how people often judge others based on intelligence).
The cost involved is exorbitant and could be much better spent; as you point out it may also cause disgust reactions in your loved ones instead of promoting closure upon your death.
Or do you mean “against cryonics’ legality”, since happiness is rarely produced by banning wasteful extravagances?
That’s not really true. Sure, it’s out reach of most of humanity, so in that sense you’re right. But for the average middle-class person in the developed world—which is the majority of people who’ll ever read your comment—this is not true. A basic life insurance policy is easily within their means.
We are talking about a cost on the order of magnitude of $100k to preserve your body—about as much as the average American manages to save for retirement. A dozen times the cost of a standard funeral. Enough to save dozens of lives. You may not be able to be reanimated, and there may be large future costs of reanimation as well as curing whatever fatal diseases you may have.
The benefit, hopefully, is “enjoy long life in a high-tech future.” That may well be worth the expense to you. But if we are just optimizing utils in the world, we might focus on shorter-term goals. Even if we hypothesize that life in that future world is amazing, we could commission a eugenically-optimized baby in the future world rather than preserving our own flawed selves at great cost. The desire that the future beneficiary be me rather than someone else is not coming from a strictly Utilitarian place.
You’re pretty close to an optimized cryonics sales-pitch for Objectivists.
Make that ‘in the US and a very few other countries’. I live in Israel, am middle class and can see myself becoming quite wealthy in the future, but—no cryonics for me.
I may be misunderstanding your original post, or maybe it’s not so easy as all that to accept other people in all their...shall we say...variety.
Okay, sorry for my mistake. I easily accept people if and only if I feel like they’ll accept me first. But this is of little significance, because people won’t even talk to me if they don’t accept me. In reality, I’ll talk to anyone who wants to talk to me (and who won’t try to impose too many of their values on me).
Let me just spout out some reactions:
There are levels of “acceptance.” Personally, I’m intimate with very few, friendly with far more, in theory I have good will towards almost everybody, and (also in theory) I think that in principle I could regard certain individuals as true enemies. At what level would you propose to “accept” people who are irrational?
Case in point—consider me! I’ve never met you and don’t know you in meatspace. We have LessWrong in common, so I’m closer to you in that way than I am to...very, very many people. However, I wouldn’t necessarily declare that very specific interest of mine just as soon as we met, assuming we met by chance. I’d probably stick to general pleasantries and conventional etiquette until I knew you a bit better. So what would you do with me?
Oh, good point. There is a point where I might get uncomfortable with irrationality, even if this irrationality did not manifest itself in intolerance (it often does, but in some cases, it is annoying at worst). But, of course, I’m not completely consistent. Some things, like believing in astrology, will make me quickly uncomfortable. That being said, a smart person who believed in astrology could conceivably convince me otherwise (just as I have a lot of respect for some smart Christians).
So what would I do with you? Hm, it probably depends on the context. I used to have a problem of getting attached to people far too quickly. And it actually seemed to work, for a while (young teenagers in the environment of school seem to be more open to fellow classmates). So I’d probably declare that interest of mine as soon as we met. But I’m trying to change a bit to the pleasantries and etiquette.