Thanks for making that connection to Zen Buddhism. I never thought of it as a central theme of The Sequences before this.
I’m still not sure if I’m convinced that it actually is a central theme. In the preface to Rationality From AI to Zombies, Eliezer writes:
It ties in to the first-largest mistake in my writing, which was that I didn’t realize that the big problem in learning this valuable way of thinking was figuring out how to practice it, not knowing the theory. I didn’t realize that part was the priority; and regarding this I can only say “Oops” and “Duh.”
The Zen Buddhism stuff you’re referring to seems like it fits into practice instead of theory, and like Eliezer says, practice isn’t emphasized too much. More specifically, The Ritual seems like a good example of a post that paints a picture of how you could apply Zen Buddhism ideas to enhance your ability to practice rationality, and at least in my recollection, posts like those weren’t very frequent.
It’s not only Eliezer’s writing. I don’t see these ideas talked about much on LessWrong by other users either. Both historically and recently. It seems like a very promising concept though, so I’d like to see more posts about it. I agree that learning how to actually practice the ideas is crucial.
I actually wouldn’t call Zen a “central theme”. More “a recurring rhetorical device”. It’s not Zen Buddhist content that the Sequences use, it’s the emulation of Zen rhetoric as a device to subtly shift the reader’s mental stance.
Not being an expert in Zen, I’m not sure what “Zen rhetoric” means. Could you provide examples quoted from the Sequences of what you are talking about and what makes it “Zen”?
I think a collection of examples and analysis would be a post in itself.
But I can give you one suggestive example from Twelve Virtues itself: “If you speak overmuch of the Way you will not attain it.”
It is a Zen idea that the essence of enlightenment cannot be discovered by talking about enlightenment; rather one must put one’s mind in the state where enlightenment is. Moreover, talk and chatter—even about Zen itself—drives that state away.
Eliezer is trying to say here that the the center of rationalist practice is not in what you know about rationality or how much cleverness you can demonstrate to others but in achieving a mental stance that processes evidence correctly and efficiently.
He is borrowing the rhetoric of Zen to say that because, as with Zen, the center of our Way is found in silence and non-attachment. The Way of Zen wants you to lose your attachment to desires; the Way of rationality wants you to lose your attachment to beliefs.
Thanks for making that connection to Zen Buddhism. I never thought of it as a central theme of The Sequences before this.
I’m still not sure if I’m convinced that it actually is a central theme. In the preface to Rationality From AI to Zombies, Eliezer writes:
The Zen Buddhism stuff you’re referring to seems like it fits into practice instead of theory, and like Eliezer says, practice isn’t emphasized too much. More specifically, The Ritual seems like a good example of a post that paints a picture of how you could apply Zen Buddhism ideas to enhance your ability to practice rationality, and at least in my recollection, posts like those weren’t very frequent.
It’s not only Eliezer’s writing. I don’t see these ideas talked about much on LessWrong by other users either. Both historically and recently. It seems like a very promising concept though, so I’d like to see more posts about it. I agree that learning how to actually practice the ideas is crucial.
I actually wouldn’t call Zen a “central theme”. More “a recurring rhetorical device”. It’s not Zen Buddhist content that the Sequences use, it’s the emulation of Zen rhetoric as a device to subtly shift the reader’s mental stance.
Not being an expert in Zen, I’m not sure what “Zen rhetoric” means. Could you provide examples quoted from the Sequences of what you are talking about and what makes it “Zen”?
I think a collection of examples and analysis would be a post in itself.
But I can give you one suggestive example from Twelve Virtues itself: “If you speak overmuch of the Way you will not attain it.”
It is a Zen idea that the essence of enlightenment cannot be discovered by talking about enlightenment; rather one must put one’s mind in the state where enlightenment is. Moreover, talk and chatter—even about Zen itself—drives that state away.
Eliezer is trying to say here that the the center of rationalist practice is not in what you know about rationality or how much cleverness you can demonstrate to others but in achieving a mental stance that processes evidence correctly and efficiently.
He is borrowing the rhetoric of Zen to say that because, as with Zen, the center of our Way is found in silence and non-attachment. The Way of Zen wants you to lose your attachment to desires; the Way of rationality wants you to lose your attachment to beliefs.
Twelve Virtues of Rationality
Two Cult Koans
Something to Protect
Beisutsukai stories
I see. Thanks for clarifying.