The arrogant vulgarity doesn’t fit well with the demonstration of naivety (come to think of it “The fuck it does” wouldn’t be be appropriate here even if well informed). Creepiness is significantly about status. Typically it refers to something along the lines of “low status male attempting interaction”.
This doesn’t mean I’m endorsing any particular instance of creepiness but it is useful to understand what it is that prompts the perception ‘creepy’.
It is not about status, except to the extent that high status can (this is a bad thing) protect the perpetrators of actual creepy behaviour from being called to account
High status can also make the identical behaviors not creepy in the first place. Even if unwelcome the perception of the high status ‘unwelcome’ will feel different to the creepy low-status ‘unwelcome’.
Well, yeah, someone you wouldn’t like to have sex with hitting on you is creepier than someone you would like to have sex with hitting on you (obviously—why the hell would the latter be creepy at all?), and (especially if “someone” is male and “you” are female), whether you would like to have sex with them correlates with their status. But would that still hold to the same extent if you could change the “status” variable while holding the “attractiveness” (broadly construed) variable constant?
Tabooing “status” might be necessary. I couldn’t compute your last sentence… Apparently my word-space is so constructed that attractiveness of a man to a woman basically equates to status. (They might not be the same thing as far as hormones are concerned, but they arise from the same mechanisms.)
What you call a less “attractive”, higher “status” man, I call a lower “status” man who has motivating factors to have incorrect beliefs about his “status”.
Apparently my word-space is so constructed that attractiveness of a man to a woman basically equates to status.
There’s your problem right there!
I’m usually not a big fan of the “look it up on Wikipedia” approach to amending skewed perception (it has the failure mode of encouraging an excessively topical, definition-driven understanding of a term), but if you perceive status and attractiveness to others as basically synonymous, or even largely so, then you’re viewing the world through a seriously-distorted lens and should really start at the ground level: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_status
I’m usually not a big fan of the “look it up on Wikipedia” approach to amending skewed perception (it has the failure mode of encouraging an excessively topical, definition-driven understanding of a term), but if you perceive status and attractiveness to others as basically synonymous, or even largely so, then you’re viewing the world through a seriously-distorted lens and should really start at the ground level: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_status
Synonymous—clearly not. “Largely so” is more of an exaggeration than a fundamental incomprehension.
Huh. Ok. What do you call the ape status-instinct then? That’s thing that you get by cleverly body-language and verbally sparring with people. I’ve managed to end up on top of a number of authority figures doing that.
Edit: the human version of the behaviour that Wikipedia describes as “dominance hierarchies”.
Double edit: would it make more sense to distinguish the terms as system-1-status and system-2-status?
I...think you’re confused. I didn’t say social status doesn’t exist; I also didn’t say that “social status” was a bad term for it. What I said was that you have an extremely nonstandard set of word associations here, such that what you mean when you’re saying “social status” is...well, not intuitive from the more usual use of that word.
I’m not saying instincts for status don’t exist; I’m saying that “attractiveness of a man to a woman basically equates to status” is a baffling definition of “status” (reinforcing my point by linking to a general overview of the concept and the things the word applies to). It would be like meaning only “penguins” whenever you say “birds”, and then trying to generalize that use whenever someone else talks about ornithology.
I think you’re misinterpreting my point again, and I also think it’s more of a “what do you mean by “melon”″ issue (ever order a melon smoothie from a place without pictures on the menu and been surprised?) than a “penguin” issue, but the definitions themselves have been adequately dissolved in this thread so there’s no point in continuing to pursue something off-topic.
Consider interaction among heterosexual people of the same sex (men with men, women with women). This is probably a majority of all social interaction, and it strongly influences status in mixed-sex social groups. While attractiveness is generally helpful here too, it’s less important than other factors.
Imagine two men who have the same socio-economical position, the same amount of social skills, wear similar clothes, behave the same way, etc., etc., but one is 5′6″ (1.68 m) and one is 6′ (1.83 m). Most women will likely be more attracted to the latter; would you say he has higher status?
Yes, minorly: halo effect. Though given your example I see that status and attraction aren’t the same thing, they’re just intertwined in a ridiculous positive feedback loop, to the extent that it’s very easy to think of them as the same thing. Having more women be attracted to you usually leads to better social skills. Having more height usually means more self-confidence, etcetc.
The specific situation you describe also can’t possibly arise, because one would look down at me to speak to me and the other would look up. Then they’d be behaving differently.
ETA: I tried to think of a least convenient world, but couldn’t.
Though given your example I see that status and attraction aren’t the same thing, they’re just intertwined in a ridiculous positive feedback loop, to the extent that it’s very easy to think of them as the same thing.
Take it from someone with rather low basic social status (multiple forms of visible minority, many of which are still thought of mainly as “deviant” rather than just “other”, who can’t can’t hide it out and about in daily life): the fact that you see it this way has more to do with your own situation and your own unfulfilled preferences, than with it being a basic feature of how status works. Status is not primarily about your sexual attractiveness to people. Low-status people get laid all the time. Low-status people get into lasting relationships. Low-status people have children. Low-status people even make ethical nonmonogamy work for them. (Low status people who fit all of the above can even be sexually frustrated!)
The specific situation you describe also can’t possibly arise, because one would look down at me to speak to me and the other would look up. Then they’d be behaving differently.
ETA: I tried to think of a least convenient world, but couldn’t.
Suppose you’re standing on a staircase. The taller man stands on a step below you, while the shorter man stands on a step above you, and the steps are of such height that each would be looking you directly in the eye. Is that a sufficiently inconvenient world?
The specific situation you describe also can’t possibly arise, because one would look down at me to speak to me and the other would look up. Then they’d be behaving differently.
C’mon. There’s a difference between looking down (physically) because you’re shorter and looking down at you (physically) because I’m looking down (metaphorically). (I’m 1.87 m (6′2″) myself so I have to do the former all the time.) In the latter case, I will stand up straight with my shoulders back and only tilt my eyes and (to a lower extent) my head down. In the former case, I will (say) sit on a stool while you’re on a higher chair/walk on the edge of the carriageway while you’re walking on the sidewalk/stand on a lower step of a stairway than you, and/or bend my whole upper body downwards.
(Why does this comment looks to me as if there are unbalanced parentheses even though I know there aren’t?)
Of course, but it still has an effect. And also the tall guy standing a step below me is definitely not behaving the same as the short guy standing a step above me.
Anyway, the difference in this case is negligible and doesn’t help the situation at hand. As far as I can see, to have a guy who was more physically attractive score lower on status would require lowering some other type of attractiveness, like behaviour or signalling. The actions you describe are signalling.
Come to think of it, maybe we just mean different things when we say “attractiveness”.
Of course, but it still has an effect. And also the tall guy standing a step below me is definitely not behaving the same as the short guy standing a step above me.
Huh, yeah. He’s also wearing larger clothes, and curving spacetime by a larger amount. But “all other things” in “all other things being equal” doesn’t usually literally mean all other things—otherwise any counterfactual will involve logical inconsistencies.
By “attractiveness” I meant the set of all things about me that determine how likely you are to be attracted to me, not just handsomeness. It seems like you might be using “status” the same way I’m using “attractiveness”, whereas I’m using it only for “social” (FLOABW) features. IOW, as I’m using the words, I can have higher or lower status in a given social group but higher or lower attractiveness for a given person. Given that not all women in the same group will be attracted to exactly the same features in men, and given that one can be higher- or lower-status even in an all-straight-male group, the two are not synonymous.
I think you’re misunderstanding my point. I agree that status has a wider social meaning, but I was specifically referring to status in the context of one man approaching one woman, and saying that in that case it is usually at least monotonic with attraction. A well-respected academic has status within his field, but is still low-status in male-female interaction terms if he is sufficiently uncharismatic.
Edit: oops. My earlier comments didn’t make this at all clear.
Fair enough. Guess I was arguing a completely different point then.
Now, where did that thread go which was about the better way to fix creepiness being how to teach people to get/signal more status, rather than what not to do… Pretty sure there they’re using this definition.
Well, yeah, someone you wouldn’t like to have sex with hitting on you is creepier than someone you would like to have sex with hitting on you (obviously—why the hell would the latter be creepy at all?)
In answer to the second question—If done so awkwardly, in a way that violates local norms or expectations or in a way that makes you look bad in public. (These are all things other than being low status that seem to play a part in the ‘creepiness’.)
I was about to answer “Well, if they behaved like that then you’d most likely not want to have sex with them (any longer)”, then I realised that if we interpret counterfactuals this way, my comment would be nearly tautological.
I was about to answer “Well, if they behaved like that then you’d most likely not want to have sex with them (any longer)”
Those are certainly unattractive traits and would often be sufficient to remove the desire. But no, the effect isn’t anywhere near strong enough to make the potential tautological definition valid.
Huh, yeah. I had in mind a sense of “creep” according to which it’d be logically contradictory to simultaneously be creeped out by someone and want to have sex with them, but now I realise i had no good reason to think that.
I guess I’ll tap out now (at least for a couple days), both because I feel like I’m borderline mind-killed and likely to get more so if I continue, and because I’ve already already procrastinated away way too much RL stuff.
The arrogant vulgarity doesn’t fit well with the demonstration of naivety (come to think of it “The fuck it does” wouldn’t be be appropriate here even if well informed). Creepiness is significantly about status. Typically it refers to something along the lines of “low status male attempting interaction”.
This doesn’t mean I’m endorsing any particular instance of creepiness but it is useful to understand what it is that prompts the perception ‘creepy’.
High status can also make the identical behaviors not creepy in the first place. Even if unwelcome the perception of the high status ‘unwelcome’ will feel different to the creepy low-status ‘unwelcome’.
Well, yeah, someone you wouldn’t like to have sex with hitting on you is creepier than someone you would like to have sex with hitting on you (obviously—why the hell would the latter be creepy at all?), and (especially if “someone” is male and “you” are female), whether you would like to have sex with them correlates with their status. But would that still hold to the same extent if you could change the “status” variable while holding the “attractiveness” (broadly construed) variable constant?
Tabooing “status” might be necessary. I couldn’t compute your last sentence… Apparently my word-space is so constructed that attractiveness of a man to a woman basically equates to status. (They might not be the same thing as far as hormones are concerned, but they arise from the same mechanisms.)
What you call a less “attractive”, higher “status” man, I call a lower “status” man who has motivating factors to have incorrect beliefs about his “status”.
Compare Bill Gates to Jose the charming tour guide.
There’s your problem right there!
I’m usually not a big fan of the “look it up on Wikipedia” approach to amending skewed perception (it has the failure mode of encouraging an excessively topical, definition-driven understanding of a term), but if you perceive status and attractiveness to others as basically synonymous, or even largely so, then you’re viewing the world through a seriously-distorted lens and should really start at the ground level: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_status
Synonymous—clearly not. “Largely so” is more of an exaggeration than a fundamental incomprehension.
Huh. Ok. What do you call the ape status-instinct then? That’s thing that you get by cleverly body-language and verbally sparring with people. I’ve managed to end up on top of a number of authority figures doing that.
Edit: the human version of the behaviour that Wikipedia describes as “dominance hierarchies”.
Double edit: would it make more sense to distinguish the terms as system-1-status and system-2-status?
I...think you’re confused. I didn’t say social status doesn’t exist; I also didn’t say that “social status” was a bad term for it. What I said was that you have an extremely nonstandard set of word associations here, such that what you mean when you’re saying “social status” is...well, not intuitive from the more usual use of that word.
I’m not saying instincts for status don’t exist; I’m saying that “attractiveness of a man to a woman basically equates to status” is a baffling definition of “status” (reinforcing my point by linking to a general overview of the concept and the things the word applies to). It would be like meaning only “penguins” whenever you say “birds”, and then trying to generalize that use whenever someone else talks about ornithology.
I think you’re misinterpreting my point again, and I also think it’s more of a “what do you mean by “melon”″ issue (ever order a melon smoothie from a place without pictures on the menu and been surprised?) than a “penguin” issue, but the definitions themselves have been adequately dissolved in this thread so there’s no point in continuing to pursue something off-topic.
Consider interaction among heterosexual people of the same sex (men with men, women with women). This is probably a majority of all social interaction, and it strongly influences status in mixed-sex social groups. While attractiveness is generally helpful here too, it’s less important than other factors.
Imagine two men who have the same socio-economical position, the same amount of social skills, wear similar clothes, behave the same way, etc., etc., but one is 5′6″ (1.68 m) and one is 6′ (1.83 m). Most women will likely be more attracted to the latter; would you say he has higher status?
Yes, minorly: halo effect. Though given your example I see that status and attraction aren’t the same thing, they’re just intertwined in a ridiculous positive feedback loop, to the extent that it’s very easy to think of them as the same thing. Having more women be attracted to you usually leads to better social skills. Having more height usually means more self-confidence, etcetc.
The specific situation you describe also can’t possibly arise, because one would look down at me to speak to me and the other would look up. Then they’d be behaving differently.
ETA: I tried to think of a least convenient world, but couldn’t.
Take it from someone with rather low basic social status (multiple forms of visible minority, many of which are still thought of mainly as “deviant” rather than just “other”, who can’t can’t hide it out and about in daily life): the fact that you see it this way has more to do with your own situation and your own unfulfilled preferences, than with it being a basic feature of how status works. Status is not primarily about your sexual attractiveness to people. Low-status people get laid all the time. Low-status people get into lasting relationships. Low-status people have children. Low-status people even make ethical nonmonogamy work for them. (Low status people who fit all of the above can even be sexually frustrated!)
Suppose you’re standing on a staircase. The taller man stands on a step below you, while the shorter man stands on a step above you, and the steps are of such height that each would be looking you directly in the eye. Is that a sufficiently inconvenient world?
IAWYC but
C’mon. There’s a difference between looking down (physically) because you’re shorter and looking down at you (physically) because I’m looking down (metaphorically). (I’m 1.87 m (6′2″) myself so I have to do the former all the time.) In the latter case, I will stand up straight with my shoulders back and only tilt my eyes and (to a lower extent) my head down. In the former case, I will (say) sit on a stool while you’re on a higher chair/walk on the edge of the carriageway while you’re walking on the sidewalk/stand on a lower step of a stairway than you, and/or bend my whole upper body downwards.
(Why does this comment looks to me as if there are unbalanced parentheses even though I know there aren’t?)
Of course, but it still has an effect. And also the tall guy standing a step below me is definitely not behaving the same as the short guy standing a step above me.
Anyway, the difference in this case is negligible and doesn’t help the situation at hand. As far as I can see, to have a guy who was more physically attractive score lower on status would require lowering some other type of attractiveness, like behaviour or signalling. The actions you describe are signalling.
Come to think of it, maybe we just mean different things when we say “attractiveness”.
Huh, yeah. He’s also wearing larger clothes, and curving spacetime by a larger amount. But “all other things” in “all other things being equal” doesn’t usually literally mean all other things—otherwise any counterfactual will involve logical inconsistencies.
By “attractiveness” I meant the set of all things about me that determine how likely you are to be attracted to me, not just handsomeness. It seems like you might be using “status” the same way I’m using “attractiveness”, whereas I’m using it only for “social” (FLOABW) features. IOW, as I’m using the words, I can have higher or lower status in a given social group but higher or lower attractiveness for a given person. Given that not all women in the same group will be attracted to exactly the same features in men, and given that one can be higher- or lower-status even in an all-straight-male group, the two are not synonymous.
I think you’re misunderstanding my point. I agree that status has a wider social meaning, but I was specifically referring to status in the context of one man approaching one woman, and saying that in that case it is usually at least monotonic with attraction. A well-respected academic has status within his field, but is still low-status in male-female interaction terms if he is sufficiently uncharismatic.
Edit: oops. My earlier comments didn’t make this at all clear.
I don’t think Athrelon in the comment that started this thread meant “status” in the latter sense.
Fair enough. Guess I was arguing a completely different point then.
Now, where did that thread go which was about the better way to fix creepiness being how to teach people to get/signal more status, rather than what not to do… Pretty sure there they’re using this definition.
(Gah, words are hard.)
In answer to the second question—If done so awkwardly, in a way that violates local norms or expectations or in a way that makes you look bad in public. (These are all things other than being low status that seem to play a part in the ‘creepiness’.)
I was about to answer “Well, if they behaved like that then you’d most likely not want to have sex with them (any longer)”, then I realised that if we interpret counterfactuals this way, my comment would be nearly tautological.
Those are certainly unattractive traits and would often be sufficient to remove the desire. But no, the effect isn’t anywhere near strong enough to make the potential tautological definition valid.
Huh, yeah. I had in mind a sense of “creep” according to which it’d be logically contradictory to simultaneously be creeped out by someone and want to have sex with them, but now I realise i had no good reason to think that.
I guess I’ll tap out now (at least for a couple days), both because I feel like I’m borderline mind-killed and likely to get more so if I continue, and because I’ve already already procrastinated away way too much RL stuff.