It always really bothers me if I get downvoted without getting feedback. … The Karma system as it is will therefore discourage newcomers and make them conclude that LW is merely an echo-chamber and does not tolerate their precious critique.
I felt the same way when I first started posting here. Particularly when I was challenging the local conventional wisdom. But now I realize that anonymous unexplained downvotes are a form of feedback, and a particularly valuable form of feedback to someone prepared to take advantage of it.
Because feedback in the form of comments simply provokes an automatic verbal response from you. You learn nothing from the experience. You just get some practice at constructing rationalizations. But feedback in the form of anonymous downvotes forces you to stop and reflect: Just what does this mean? What do I need to change so as to prevent this? What experiments should I undertake?”
ETA:
Negative Karma without feedback causes resentment in all people except those who already acquired enough rationality skills and realization to infer that there might be something wrong with their comment and not with the person downvoting it. The Karma system as it is will therefore discourage newcomers …
A good point. So for LW regulars, it may be worth remembering that it is more informative to upvote explicit criticism of newbie mistakes than to downvote the mistakes themselves.
So for LW regulars, it may be worth remembering that it is more informative to upvote explicit criticism of newbie mistakes than to downvote the mistakes themselves.
A good suggestion. I expect whether I follow it or not will depend on how arrogant the newbie is. Unless, of course the explicit criticism is ‘you are being arrogant and annoying. We are more fussy about that sort of thing here than in many other places on the internet’. Then I suppose the same principle would apply. :)
But now I realize that anonymous unexplained downvotes are a form of feedback, and a particularly valuable form of feedback to someone prepared to take advantage of it.
But if you were posting a comment about cooking wouldn’t you weigh the Karma of a chef differently than that of someone who has merely joint your culinary community to read up on some recipe?
But feedback in the form of anonymous downvotes forces you to stop and reflect: Just what does this mean? What do I need to change so as to prevent this? What experiments should I undertake?”
I don’t expect most of all people to conclude this naturally. I believe there is some evidence for this, as for example this Wiki entry states:
It’s unclear whether Descartes, Spinoza or Leibniz would have lasted a day without being voted down into oblivion.
And that is actually from a ‘Rationality Wiki’, so what might John Doe conclude?
It’s unclear whether Descartes, Spinoza or Leibniz would have lasted a day without being voted down into oblivion.
I loved that line. It was put in there among ‘the ugly’ but I consider it one of the best features of lesswrong. Just because they talk about some guy in high school doesn’t mean their thinking is any good! Eat downvote burn until your thinking gets up to scratch Descartes. Read the damn sequences!
(I wonder if Descartes would end up getting into arguments with Mitchell… “I thought I was me, I still think I’m me, therefore I am still me!”)
But if you were posting a comment about cooking wouldn’t you weigh the Karma of a chef differently than that of someone who has merely joint your culinary community to read up on some recipe?
My experience with comments has been that it is wisest to ignore the reputation of the source and simply focus on the words. (One exception: interpreting irony).
So I doubt that knowing the source of up- and down- votes would be particularly useful either. If I know that a great chef has downvoted my chili recipe, I still don’t know whether it is because he doesn’t like my spelling, doesn’t like my ingredients, or simply doesn’t care for chili.
If a chef downvotes your chili recipe, it could be because he doesn’t like your spelling, your ingredients, or chili.
If a random person downvotes your chili recipe, it could also be because she doesn’t like your spelling, your ingredients, or chili.
The first downvote is still more informative even given any particular reason for downvoting, because the chef is more likely than a random person to know how to spell “roux”, cook a perfect pot of pinto beans, or have good reasons to dislike chili as a class of food (e.g. “tried seven versions, don’t like any” v. “had it when I was a kid and didn’t like it”).
I felt the same way when I first started posting here. Particularly when I was challenging the local conventional wisdom. But now I realize that anonymous unexplained downvotes are a form of feedback, and a particularly valuable form of feedback to someone prepared to take advantage of it.
Because feedback in the form of comments simply provokes an automatic verbal response from you. You learn nothing from the experience. You just get some practice at constructing rationalizations. But feedback in the form of anonymous downvotes forces you to stop and reflect: Just what does this mean? What do I need to change so as to prevent this? What experiments should I undertake?”
ETA:
A good point. So for LW regulars, it may be worth remembering that it is more informative to upvote explicit criticism of newbie mistakes than to downvote the mistakes themselves.
A good suggestion. I expect whether I follow it or not will depend on how arrogant the newbie is. Unless, of course the explicit criticism is ‘you are being arrogant and annoying. We are more fussy about that sort of thing here than in many other places on the internet’. Then I suppose the same principle would apply. :)
But if you were posting a comment about cooking wouldn’t you weigh the Karma of a chef differently than that of someone who has merely joint your culinary community to read up on some recipe?
I don’t expect most of all people to conclude this naturally. I believe there is some evidence for this, as for example this Wiki entry states:
And that is actually from a ‘Rationality Wiki’, so what might John Doe conclude?
I loved that line. It was put in there among ‘the ugly’ but I consider it one of the best features of lesswrong. Just because they talk about some guy in high school doesn’t mean their thinking is any good! Eat downvote burn until your thinking gets up to scratch Descartes. Read the damn sequences!
(I wonder if Descartes would end up getting into arguments with Mitchell… “I thought I was me, I still think I’m me, therefore I am still me!”)
My experience with comments has been that it is wisest to ignore the reputation of the source and simply focus on the words. (One exception: interpreting irony).
So I doubt that knowing the source of up- and down- votes would be particularly useful either. If I know that a great chef has downvoted my chili recipe, I still don’t know whether it is because he doesn’t like my spelling, doesn’t like my ingredients, or simply doesn’t care for chili.
If a chef downvotes your chili recipe, it could be because he doesn’t like your spelling, your ingredients, or chili.
If a random person downvotes your chili recipe, it could also be because she doesn’t like your spelling, your ingredients, or chili.
The first downvote is still more informative even given any particular reason for downvoting, because the chef is more likely than a random person to know how to spell “roux”, cook a perfect pot of pinto beans, or have good reasons to dislike chili as a class of food (e.g. “tried seven versions, don’t like any” v. “had it when I was a kid and didn’t like it”).