There will probably be holes and not quite capture exactly what I mean, but I’ll take a shot. Let me know if this is not rigorous or detailed enough and I’ll take another stab, or if you have any other follow-up. I have answered this immediately, without changing tab, so the only contamination is saccading my LW inbox beforing clicking through to your comment, the titles of other tabs, etc. which look (as one would expect) to be irrelevant.
Helplessness about topic X—One is not able to attain a knowably stable and confident opinion about X given the amount of effort one is prepared to put in or the limits of one’s knowledge or expertise etc. One’s lack of knowledge of X includes lack of knowledge about the kinds of arguments or methods that tend to work in X, lack of experience spotting crackpot or amateur claims about X, and lack of general knowledge of X that would allow one to notice one’s confusion at false basic claims and reject them. One is unable to distinguish between ballsy amateurs and experts.
Learned helplessness about X—The helplessness is learned from experience of X; much like the sheep in Animal Farm, one gets opinion whiplash on some matter of X that makes one realise that one knows so little about X that one can be argued into any opinion about it.
(This has ended up more like a bunch of arbitrary properties pointing to the sense of learned helplessness rather than a slick definition. Is it suitable for your purposes, or should I try harder to cut to the essence?)
Rant about learned helplessness in physics: Puzzles in physics, or challenges to predict the outcome of a situation or experiment, often seem like they have many different possible explanations leading to a variety of very different answers, with the merit of these explanations not being distinguishable except to those who have done lots of physics and seen lots of tricks, and maybe even then maybe you just need to already know the answer before you can pick the correct answer.
Moreover, one eventually learns that the explanations at a given level of physics instruction are probably technically wrong in that they are simplified (though I guess less so as one progresses).
Moreover moreover, one eventually becomes smart enough to see that the instructors do not actually even spot their leaps in logic. (For example, it never seemed to occur to any of my instructors that there’s no reason you can’t have negative wavenumbers when looking at wavefunctions in basic quantum. It turns out that when I run the numbers, everything rescales since the wavefunction bijects between -n and n and one normalizes the wavefunction anyway, so that it doesn’t matter, but one could only know this for sure after reasoning it out and justifying discarding the negative wavenumbers. It basically seemed like the instructors saw an ‘n’ in sin(n*pi/L) or whatever and their brain took it as a natural number without any cognitive reflection that the letter could have just as easily been a k or z or something, and to check that the notation was justified by the referent having to be a natural.)
Moreover, it takes a high level of philosophical ability to reason about physics thought experiments and their standards of proof. Take the ‘directly downwind faster than the wind’ problem. The argument goes back and forth, and, like the sheep, at every point the side that’s speaking seems to be winning. Terry Tao comes along and says it’s possible, and people link to videos of carts with propellers apparently going downwind faster than the wind and wheels with rubber bands attached allegedly proving it. But beyond deferring to his general hard sciences problem-solving ability, one has no inside view way to verify Tao’s solution; what are the standards of proof for a thought experiment? After all, maybe the contraptions in the video only work (assuming they do work as claimed, which isn’t assured) because of slight side-to-side effects rather than directly down wind or some other property of the test conditions implicitly forbidden by the thought experiment.
Since any physical experiment for a physics thought experiment will have additional variables, one needs some way to distinguish relevant and irrelevant variables. Is the thought experiment the limit as extraneous variables become negligible, or is there a discontinuity? What if different sets of variables give rise to different limits? How does anyone ever know what the ‘correct’ answer is to an idealised physics thought experiment of a situation that never actually arises? Etc.
Thanks for that. The whole response is interesting.
I ask because up until quite recently I was labouring under a wonky definition of “learned helplessness” that revolved around strategic self-handicapping.
An example would be people who foster a characteristic of technical incompetence, to the point where they refuse to click next-next-finish on a noddy software installer. Every time they exhibit their technical incompetence, they’re reinforced in this behaviour by someone taking the “hard” task away from them. Hence their “helplessness” is “learned”.
It wasn’t until recently that I came across an accurate definition in a book on reinforcement training. I’m pretty sure I’ve had “learned helplessness” in my lexicon for over a decade, and I’ve never seen it used in a context that challenged my definition, or used it in a way that aroused suspicion. It’s worth noting that I probably picked up my definition through observing feminist discussions. Trying a mental find-and-replace on ten years’ conversations is kind of weird.
I am also now bereft of a term for what I thought “learned helplessness” was. Analogous ideas come up in game theory, but there’s no snappy self-contained way available to me for expressing it.
I am also now bereft of a term for what I thought “learned helplessness” was. Analogous ideas come up in game theory, but there’s no snappy self-contained way available to me for expressing it.
Schelling does talk about strategic self-sabotage, but it captures a lot of deliberated behaviour that isn’t implied in my fake definition.
Also interesting to note, I have read that Epistemic Learned Helplessness blog entry before, and my fake definition is sufficiently consistent with it that it doesn’t stand out as obviously incorrect.
Also interesting to note, I have read that Epistemic Learned Helplessness blog entry before, and my fake definition is sufficiently consistent with it that it doesn’t stand out as obviously incorrect.
Now picturing a Venn diagram with three overlapping circles labelled “epistemic learned helplessness”, “what psychologists call ‘learned helplessness’”, and “what sixes_and_sevens calls ‘learned helplessness’”!
An example would be people who foster a characteristic of technical incompetence, to the point where they refuse to click next-next-finish on a noddy software installer. Every time they exhibit their technical incompetence, they’re reinforced in this behaviour by someone taking the “hard” task away from them. Hence their “helplessness” is “learned”.
Making up a term for this...”reinforced helplessness”? (I dunno whether it’d generalize to cover the rest of what you formerly meant by “learned helplessness”.)
There will probably be holes and not quite capture exactly what I mean, but I’ll take a shot. Let me know if this is not rigorous or detailed enough and I’ll take another stab, or if you have any other follow-up. I have answered this immediately, without changing tab, so the only contamination is saccading my LW inbox beforing clicking through to your comment, the titles of other tabs, etc. which look (as one would expect) to be irrelevant.
Helplessness about topic X—One is not able to attain a knowably stable and confident opinion about X given the amount of effort one is prepared to put in or the limits of one’s knowledge or expertise etc. One’s lack of knowledge of X includes lack of knowledge about the kinds of arguments or methods that tend to work in X, lack of experience spotting crackpot or amateur claims about X, and lack of general knowledge of X that would allow one to notice one’s confusion at false basic claims and reject them. One is unable to distinguish between ballsy amateurs and experts.
Learned helplessness about X—The helplessness is learned from experience of X; much like the sheep in Animal Farm, one gets opinion whiplash on some matter of X that makes one realise that one knows so little about X that one can be argued into any opinion about it.
(This has ended up more like a bunch of arbitrary properties pointing to the sense of learned helplessness rather than a slick definition. Is it suitable for your purposes, or should I try harder to cut to the essence?)
Rant about learned helplessness in physics: Puzzles in physics, or challenges to predict the outcome of a situation or experiment, often seem like they have many different possible explanations leading to a variety of very different answers, with the merit of these explanations not being distinguishable except to those who have done lots of physics and seen lots of tricks, and maybe even then maybe you just need to already know the answer before you can pick the correct answer.
Moreover, one eventually learns that the explanations at a given level of physics instruction are probably technically wrong in that they are simplified (though I guess less so as one progresses).
Moreover moreover, one eventually becomes smart enough to see that the instructors do not actually even spot their leaps in logic. (For example, it never seemed to occur to any of my instructors that there’s no reason you can’t have negative wavenumbers when looking at wavefunctions in basic quantum. It turns out that when I run the numbers, everything rescales since the wavefunction bijects between -n and n and one normalizes the wavefunction anyway, so that it doesn’t matter, but one could only know this for sure after reasoning it out and justifying discarding the negative wavenumbers. It basically seemed like the instructors saw an ‘n’ in sin(n*pi/L) or whatever and their brain took it as a natural number without any cognitive reflection that the letter could have just as easily been a k or z or something, and to check that the notation was justified by the referent having to be a natural.)
Moreover, it takes a high level of philosophical ability to reason about physics thought experiments and their standards of proof. Take the ‘directly downwind faster than the wind’ problem. The argument goes back and forth, and, like the sheep, at every point the side that’s speaking seems to be winning. Terry Tao comes along and says it’s possible, and people link to videos of carts with propellers apparently going downwind faster than the wind and wheels with rubber bands attached allegedly proving it. But beyond deferring to his general hard sciences problem-solving ability, one has no inside view way to verify Tao’s solution; what are the standards of proof for a thought experiment? After all, maybe the contraptions in the video only work (assuming they do work as claimed, which isn’t assured) because of slight side-to-side effects rather than directly down wind or some other property of the test conditions implicitly forbidden by the thought experiment.
Since any physical experiment for a physics thought experiment will have additional variables, one needs some way to distinguish relevant and irrelevant variables. Is the thought experiment the limit as extraneous variables become negligible, or is there a discontinuity? What if different sets of variables give rise to different limits? How does anyone ever know what the ‘correct’ answer is to an idealised physics thought experiment of a situation that never actually arises? Etc.
Thanks for that. The whole response is interesting.
I ask because up until quite recently I was labouring under a wonky definition of “learned helplessness” that revolved around strategic self-handicapping.
An example would be people who foster a characteristic of technical incompetence, to the point where they refuse to click next-next-finish on a noddy software installer. Every time they exhibit their technical incompetence, they’re reinforced in this behaviour by someone taking the “hard” task away from them. Hence their “helplessness” is “learned”.
It wasn’t until recently that I came across an accurate definition in a book on reinforcement training. I’m pretty sure I’ve had “learned helplessness” in my lexicon for over a decade, and I’ve never seen it used in a context that challenged my definition, or used it in a way that aroused suspicion. It’s worth noting that I probably picked up my definition through observing feminist discussions. Trying a mental find-and-replace on ten years’ conversations is kind of weird.
I am also now bereft of a term for what I thought “learned helplessness” was. Analogous ideas come up in game theory, but there’s no snappy self-contained way available to me for expressing it.
Good chance you’ve seen both of these before, but:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness and http://squid314.livejournal.com/350090.html
Damn, if only someone had created a thread for that, ho ho ho
Strategic incompetence?
I’m not sure if maybe Schelling uses a specific name (self-sabotage?) for that kind of thing?
Schelling does talk about strategic self-sabotage, but it captures a lot of deliberated behaviour that isn’t implied in my fake definition.
Also interesting to note, I have read that Epistemic Learned Helplessness blog entry before, and my fake definition is sufficiently consistent with it that it doesn’t stand out as obviously incorrect.
Now picturing a Venn diagram with three overlapping circles labelled “epistemic learned helplessness”, “what psychologists call ‘learned helplessness’”, and “what sixes_and_sevens calls ‘learned helplessness’”!
Making up a term for this...”reinforced helplessness”? (I dunno whether it’d generalize to cover the rest of what you formerly meant by “learned helplessness”.)