I think this might be (very slightly) unfair to mRNA vaccines, as the comparison between them and peptide vaccines is pretty situation dependent:
We have reason to believe that peptide vaccines will work particularly well here, because we’re targeting a respiratory infection, and the peptide vaccine delivery mechanism targets respiratory tissue instead of blood.
That said, mRNA vaccines are expected to elicit much stronger immune responses than peptide vaccines would.
I suspect that the low efficacy of mRNA vaccines (only 95% - low is relative) is likely because they’re only targeting the spike protein, which apparently has ‘high mutant escape potential’. We have a LOT more information about the virus now than we did when the mRNA designs were finalized. If companies had been allowed to make mRNA vaccine updates without resetting all the clinical trials, I believe we’d have a substantially better/stronger vaccine than just 95%, with a single shot instead of two.
mRNA vaccines are really just a technology demo at this point; sure, you can make vaccines with the tech, but that’s not the real superpower here. The superpower is that we have a platform we can use to generate arbitrary proteins in live cells, including proteins we know about but for which we have no reasonable delivery mechanism. Not all proteins/peptides are water soluble, and fewer are able to get through cell walls.
As a technology demo (and not a simple one at that), it’s surprising that companies have as much production capability as they do. I would expect that capacity to be ramped up substantially in the next few years as we start aggressively making use of mRNA treatments to address a host of issues.
To sum up, my view is that mRNA technology is pretty great and I’m really, really glad someone was able to make use of the disaster that was 2021 to ram through safety and clinical trials. My issue is less with the technology and it’s large promise, and more with how vaccine testing and rollout has been botched or unnecessarily slowed down at every level.
Peptide vaccines are easy and fast to both design and construct, while being safe unless you really screw up, and effective as long as designed correctly. However, they do have rather substantial limitations, and it’s just happenstance that they’re particularly well suited for the situation. I could see mRNA vaccines having a much wider berth.
We have reason to believe that peptide vaccines will work particularly well here, because we’re targeting a respiratory infection, and the peptide vaccine delivery mechanism targets respiratory tissue instead of blood.
Just a minor point: by delivery mechanism, are you talking about inserting the peptides through the nose à la RadVac? If I understand correctly, Werner Stöcker injects his peptide-based vaccine.
I suspect that the low efficacy of mRNA vaccines (only 95% - low is relative) is likely because they’re only targeting the spike protein, which apparently has ‘high mutant escape potential’. We have a LOT more information about the virus now than we did when the mRNA designs were finalized. If companies had been allowed to make mRNA vaccine updates without resetting all the clinical trials, I believe we’d have a substantially better/stronger vaccine than just 95%, with a single shot instead of two.
Eh, I guess I’m skeptical that it’s that easy, even now, to make changes to the mRNA vaccines that would bring us from 95% up to 100% protection (against symptomatic infection), without knowing more about what’s happening to that 5%. The spike protein does have “high mutant escape potential” as we are seeing, but I’m not sure that’s what’s behind 95% vs. 100% efficacy, given that the clinical trial data was gathered mostly before mutants really started taking off. It could just be inherent variability in the strength of people’s immune systems. Not that it matters a ton, it’s not like those 5% are developing severe disease, and given that I think it’s weird to call the efficacy low (even in a relative sense — relative to which more effective vaccines?).
I don’t believe so, only radvac and euroimmun are peptide based. My question is why none of the commercial vaccines are peptide based (?) given this is a very well established vaccine technology (and particularly well suited for sars-cov2.
My issue is less with the technology and it’s large promise, and more with how vaccine testing and rollout has been botched or unnecessarily slowed down at every level.
I agree that the main issue is regulation that makes vaccine testing and the rollout harder then it needs to be.
We don’t know at this point how often you can give someone polyethylenglycol-based mRNA without their body creating a serious allergic reaction against it. That’s an open safety question that needs to be addressed before you can use mRNA treatments to address a host of different issues. We already have substantially more side effects for the second vaccine dose then the first.
I think this might be (very slightly) unfair to mRNA vaccines, as the comparison between them and peptide vaccines is pretty situation dependent:
We have reason to believe that peptide vaccines will work particularly well here, because we’re targeting a respiratory infection, and the peptide vaccine delivery mechanism targets respiratory tissue instead of blood.
That said, mRNA vaccines are expected to elicit much stronger immune responses than peptide vaccines would.
I suspect that the low efficacy of mRNA vaccines (only 95% - low is relative) is likely because they’re only targeting the spike protein, which apparently has ‘high mutant escape potential’. We have a LOT more information about the virus now than we did when the mRNA designs were finalized. If companies had been allowed to make mRNA vaccine updates without resetting all the clinical trials, I believe we’d have a substantially better/stronger vaccine than just 95%, with a single shot instead of two.
mRNA vaccines are really just a technology demo at this point; sure, you can make vaccines with the tech, but that’s not the real superpower here. The superpower is that we have a platform we can use to generate arbitrary proteins in live cells, including proteins we know about but for which we have no reasonable delivery mechanism. Not all proteins/peptides are water soluble, and fewer are able to get through cell walls.
As a technology demo (and not a simple one at that), it’s surprising that companies have as much production capability as they do. I would expect that capacity to be ramped up substantially in the next few years as we start aggressively making use of mRNA treatments to address a host of issues.
To sum up, my view is that mRNA technology is pretty great and I’m really, really glad someone was able to make use of the disaster that was 2021 to ram through safety and clinical trials. My issue is less with the technology and it’s large promise, and more with how vaccine testing and rollout has been botched or unnecessarily slowed down at every level.
Peptide vaccines are easy and fast to both design and construct, while being safe unless you really screw up, and effective as long as designed correctly. However, they do have rather substantial limitations, and it’s just happenstance that they’re particularly well suited for the situation. I could see mRNA vaccines having a much wider berth.
Just a minor point: by delivery mechanism, are you talking about inserting the peptides through the nose à la RadVac? If I understand correctly, Werner Stöcker injects his peptide-based vaccine.
Eh, I guess I’m skeptical that it’s that easy, even now, to make changes to the mRNA vaccines that would bring us from 95% up to 100% protection (against symptomatic infection), without knowing more about what’s happening to that 5%. The spike protein does have “high mutant escape potential” as we are seeing, but I’m not sure that’s what’s behind 95% vs. 100% efficacy, given that the clinical trial data was gathered mostly before mutants really started taking off. It could just be inherent variability in the strength of people’s immune systems. Not that it matters a ton, it’s not like those 5% are developing severe disease, and given that I think it’s weird to call the efficacy low (even in a relative sense — relative to which more effective vaccines?).
I should probably know this, but are any of the mass produced COVID vaccines peptide vaccines?
The Novavax candidate is a recombinant protein.
I don’t believe so, only radvac and euroimmun are peptide based. My question is why none of the commercial vaccines are peptide based (?) given this is a very well established vaccine technology (and particularly well suited for sars-cov2.
I agree that the main issue is regulation that makes vaccine testing and the rollout harder then it needs to be.
We don’t know at this point how often you can give someone polyethylenglycol-based mRNA without their body creating a serious allergic reaction against it. That’s an open safety question that needs to be addressed before you can use mRNA treatments to address a host of different issues. We already have substantially more side effects for the second vaccine dose then the first.