I think from reading some of the other comments here on the LessWrong post, I’m a bit worried that this might be turning into some flame wars.
I’d note that this particular book is probably not the best one to have debates around this issue for. The book seems to be quite a bit more sensationalist, moralistic, and less scientific than I’d really like, which I think makes it very difficult to discuss. This seems like a subject that would attract lots of motte-and-bailey thinking on both sides. (the connection between more reasonable vs. outlandish claims representing the motte-and-bailey, but switched on each side).
This is clearly a highly sensitive issue. No one wants to be (publicly especially!) associated with either racism or cancel culture.
Publicly discussion is far more challenging than private discussions. For example, we simply don’t know who is watching these discussions or who might be trying to use anything posted here for antagonistic purposes. (They copy several comments from someone and post them without much context, accusing them of either racism or cancel culture).
Very sadly, public discussion of topics like these right now is thoroughly challenging for many reasons. My guess is that it’s often just not worth it.
Great question! I have some books I personally enjoyed, and also would like to encourage others to recommend texts. I’m sure that my understanding is vastly less than what I’d really want. However, there are a few books that come to mind.
I think the big challenge, for me, is “attempting to empathize and understand African Americans”. This is incredibly, ridiculously difficult! Cultures are very different from one another. I grew up in an area with a large mix of ethnic groups, and I think that was useful, but the challenge is far greater.
In pop culture, I found “Dear White People”, both the movie, and the TV show (mostly the first 2 seasons), to be pretty interesting.
I really like James Baldwin, though enjoyed his speeches more than his books, so far.
Honestly, African American Studies is just a gigantic field with lots of great work. This can be looked at as interesting to better understand African Americans, but there’s also a lot of other take-aways, like understanding severe cognitive biases and motivated reasoning and from a very different angle.
Fans of the TV show The Wire might want to check out David Simon’s earlier work The Corner. It’s not as artfully done as The Wire, but it is a direct retelling of a real family’s story from Simon’s days reporting for the Baltimore Sun, so it is as close to being a documentary as you can get without it actually being a documentary. I found both The Wire and The Corner to be quite useful for getting a visceral sense of what it’s like to grow up poor and Black in America’s inner cities.
I’ve also learned a lot about America’s racial history from reading Robert Caro’s biography of Lyndon Johnson, particularly the volume Master of the Senate. A brief history of the Senate itself is included in the book, and it’s striking to read about the details of how our country’s official instruments of power were used to undercut opportunities for Black people well into the 20th century. For example, I had assumed that “white supremacy” was just an academic neologism, but it turns out that Southern whites actually used this term unironically and as a call to action, including in speeches on the Senate floor. That blew my mind.
Looked briefly at “So You Want to Talk about Race” and yes, it is much better than “White Fragility”. There are specific things mentioned already at the beginning of the first chapter, which distinguish between racism and classism—both real problems with some overlap, but it’s driving me crazy how the woke left conflates them… as if the only problem with CEOs exploiting workers is that the CEOs are white males; as long as we make sure there are enough black, female, and nonbinary CEOs, the exploitation of workers will cease to be a moral problem; maybe white male workers unionizing against a black female CEO will be considered sexist and racist… oops, sorry I’m ranting...
My point is, the epistemic level of the first chapter (I haven’t read more yet) is way higher that the “I make money by telling people they are racist, and I have no clue why they feel so defensive” DiAngelo. Perhaps it helps that it is written by an actual black person who can provide specific examples, as opposed to a woke white activist offering platitudes.
I think from reading some of the other comments here on the LessWrong post, I’m a bit worried that this might be turning into some flame wars.
I’m happy that you mentioned this, because I think I agree now that you’ve pointed it out. Re-thinking some of my comments now. I won’t delete them but… I like LessWrong because there’s usually not a lot of culture war stuff.
I think from reading some of the other comments here on the LessWrong post, I’m a bit worried that this might be turning into some flame wars.
I’d note that this particular book is probably not the best one to have debates around this issue for. The book seems to be quite a bit more sensationalist, moralistic, and less scientific than I’d really like, which I think makes it very difficult to discuss. This seems like a subject that would attract lots of motte-and-bailey thinking on both sides. (the connection between more reasonable vs. outlandish claims representing the motte-and-bailey, but switched on each side).
This is clearly a highly sensitive issue. No one wants to be (publicly especially!) associated with either racism or cancel culture.
Publicly discussion is far more challenging than private discussions. For example, we simply don’t know who is watching these discussions or who might be trying to use anything posted here for antagonistic purposes. (They copy several comments from someone and post them without much context, accusing them of either racism or cancel culture).
Very sadly, public discussion of topics like these right now is thoroughly challenging for many reasons. My guess is that it’s often just not worth it.
Is there another book you have in mind that you could recommend instead?
Great question! I have some books I personally enjoyed, and also would like to encourage others to recommend texts. I’m sure that my understanding is vastly less than what I’d really want. However, there are a few books that come to mind.
I think the big challenge, for me, is “attempting to empathize and understand African Americans”. This is incredibly, ridiculously difficult! Cultures are very different from one another. I grew up in an area with a large mix of ethnic groups, and I think that was useful, but the challenge is far greater.
I really liked “So You Want to Talk about Race”, a few years ago.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/35099718-so-you-want-to-talk-about-race?ac=1&from_search=true&qid=Q2Zay18Jca&rank=1
I thought Black Like Me was great, though it’s by a white author, and he doesn’t have as good an understanding (though he comes from a similar place to many white readers)
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/42603.Black_Like_Me?ac=1&from_search=true&qid=qI4fgVu3E5&rank=1
In pop culture, I found “Dear White People”, both the movie, and the TV show (mostly the first 2 seasons), to be pretty interesting.
I really like James Baldwin, though enjoyed his speeches more than his books, so far.
Honestly, African American Studies is just a gigantic field with lots of great work. This can be looked at as interesting to better understand African Americans, but there’s also a lot of other take-aways, like understanding severe cognitive biases and motivated reasoning and from a very different angle.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American_studies
Of course, many of these resources are somewhat specific to American problems.
Fans of the TV show The Wire might want to check out David Simon’s earlier work The Corner. It’s not as artfully done as The Wire, but it is a direct retelling of a real family’s story from Simon’s days reporting for the Baltimore Sun, so it is as close to being a documentary as you can get without it actually being a documentary. I found both The Wire and The Corner to be quite useful for getting a visceral sense of what it’s like to grow up poor and Black in America’s inner cities.
I’ve also learned a lot about America’s racial history from reading Robert Caro’s biography of Lyndon Johnson, particularly the volume Master of the Senate. A brief history of the Senate itself is included in the book, and it’s striking to read about the details of how our country’s official instruments of power were used to undercut opportunities for Black people well into the 20th century. For example, I had assumed that “white supremacy” was just an academic neologism, but it turns out that Southern whites actually used this term unironically and as a call to action, including in speeches on the Senate floor. That blew my mind.
Looked briefly at “So You Want to Talk about Race” and yes, it is much better than “White Fragility”. There are specific things mentioned already at the beginning of the first chapter, which distinguish between racism and classism—both real problems with some overlap, but it’s driving me crazy how the woke left conflates them… as if the only problem with CEOs exploiting workers is that the CEOs are white males; as long as we make sure there are enough black, female, and nonbinary CEOs, the exploitation of workers will cease to be a moral problem; maybe white male workers unionizing against a black female CEO will be considered sexist and racist… oops, sorry I’m ranting...
My point is, the epistemic level of the first chapter (I haven’t read more yet) is way higher that the “I make money by telling people they are racist, and I have no clue why they feel so defensive” DiAngelo. Perhaps it helps that it is written by an actual black person who can provide specific examples, as opposed to a woke white activist offering platitudes.
I read Between the World and Me—and even though I have significiant disagreement with the author—I really did think it was a work of art.
I’m happy that you mentioned this, because I think I agree now that you’ve pointed it out. Re-thinking some of my comments now. I won’t delete them but… I like LessWrong because there’s usually not a lot of culture war stuff.