You seem to be saying that the existence or not of god does not follow the usual rules of updating your beliefs based on evidence. I disagree with that.
Say, for example, that you put a very low (possibly zero) probability on the idea that god exists. Your argument seems to be saying that there is no sensory experience whatsoever that should make this hypothetical atheist update their beliefs on that point. Even seeing God, convincingly turn up and speak to them, repeatedly, many times, until its as normal as seeing the sky, should not apparently convince them.
I think this is bad reasoning. Yes, sensory experience can be flawed, drugs can addle your mind. That just means you don’t update all the way. I believe in the moon, but I cannot completely rule out that I have been drugged and its a hallucination. I don’t think that the rules of logic and evidence should have an exception clause for spiritual or godlike entities.
I am here more thinking of “spiritual experiences” as e.g. visions or dreams. I do think that for example a miracle that leaves more tangible, durable proof is definitely evidence that updates towards the existence of some power causing that miracle.
However the point I’m making is a bit subtler. Even the existence of gods or demons need not imply a dualist worldview. There could be entities that possess immense power and obey rules that we still do not understand; but as long as we can, with study and observation, bring them into the fold of the causal relationships between various interlocking parts of the universe, they can perfectly fit within a materialist worldview. Consider most fantasy worlds with hard magic systems, in which crazy stuff happens daily, but it all works exactly like their local version of science—there is nothing mystical about it once it’s understood.
So what I mean is more, what qualifies an experience as “spiritual”? For example, you can be a panpsychist and that would imply all sorts of weird possibilities (including small consciousnesses in nature and objects, like Japanese kami, and massive gestalt divine consciousnesses in the planet or the universe itself), but it would all still obey the rules of a single world made of matter. It just updates our understanding of what the properties of matter are. Dualism is a much weirder claim; for something to be spiritual it has to be in some way fundamentally different from the regular sort of matter (so for example acausal).
I understand what you mean now. Thanks for clarifying.
Its like the old argument about how if a “miracle” is defined as something that breaks the fundamental laws of physics then they can’t happen by definition. Observing Jesus water walking only indicates that the true laws of physics controlling buoyancy contain an exception for which a sufficient cause is being the son of god. (Its not that the code wasn’t followed, but that it contained “if” statements).
If we find a “god” who seems a lot like the ones people worship (eg, actually fathered a man called Jesus), but is made of some kind of real physical stuff (a type of matter or energy, or some new thing as yet undiscovered), then I would chalk that up as a victory for the theists, definitional issues aside. I think the only logically reasonable way of interpreting theists is to take them as postulating real physical things (made of some kind of matter, or other thing not yet understood by science). Obviously on firm evidence of such beings step one is to study them extensively. Find ways of harnessing, their capabilities. Once they were understood, and “god” derived spirits or materials were commonplace they would seem no more special than radioactivity or computers.
Often in fantasy settings with magic systems the author seems to realize that they have turned magic into a “mundane” thing that is no more special in there world than radioactivity is in ours. This cane lead them to draw a distiniction between two levels of magic, the explained “ordinary”, “mundane” magic (the one power in Wheel of time, “Wingardium Leviosa” in Harry Potter). And a deeper level of magic with less reasoned rules (the True Power in wheel of time, Harry’s mothers love protecting him in Harry potter).
(Sorry for the wall of text ramble, I think its an interesting distinction you are making.)
You seem to be saying that the existence or not of god does not follow the usual rules of updating your beliefs based on evidence. I disagree with that.
Say, for example, that you put a very low (possibly zero) probability on the idea that god exists. Your argument seems to be saying that there is no sensory experience whatsoever that should make this hypothetical atheist update their beliefs on that point. Even seeing God, convincingly turn up and speak to them, repeatedly, many times, until its as normal as seeing the sky, should not apparently convince them.
I think this is bad reasoning. Yes, sensory experience can be flawed, drugs can addle your mind. That just means you don’t update all the way. I believe in the moon, but I cannot completely rule out that I have been drugged and its a hallucination. I don’t think that the rules of logic and evidence should have an exception clause for spiritual or godlike entities.
I am here more thinking of “spiritual experiences” as e.g. visions or dreams. I do think that for example a miracle that leaves more tangible, durable proof is definitely evidence that updates towards the existence of some power causing that miracle.
However the point I’m making is a bit subtler. Even the existence of gods or demons need not imply a dualist worldview. There could be entities that possess immense power and obey rules that we still do not understand; but as long as we can, with study and observation, bring them into the fold of the causal relationships between various interlocking parts of the universe, they can perfectly fit within a materialist worldview. Consider most fantasy worlds with hard magic systems, in which crazy stuff happens daily, but it all works exactly like their local version of science—there is nothing mystical about it once it’s understood.
So what I mean is more, what qualifies an experience as “spiritual”? For example, you can be a panpsychist and that would imply all sorts of weird possibilities (including small consciousnesses in nature and objects, like Japanese kami, and massive gestalt divine consciousnesses in the planet or the universe itself), but it would all still obey the rules of a single world made of matter. It just updates our understanding of what the properties of matter are. Dualism is a much weirder claim; for something to be spiritual it has to be in some way fundamentally different from the regular sort of matter (so for example acausal).
I understand what you mean now. Thanks for clarifying.
Its like the old argument about how if a “miracle” is defined as something that breaks the fundamental laws of physics then they can’t happen by definition. Observing Jesus water walking only indicates that the true laws of physics controlling buoyancy contain an exception for which a sufficient cause is being the son of god. (Its not that the code wasn’t followed, but that it contained “if” statements).
If we find a “god” who seems a lot like the ones people worship (eg, actually fathered a man called Jesus), but is made of some kind of real physical stuff (a type of matter or energy, or some new thing as yet undiscovered), then I would chalk that up as a victory for the theists, definitional issues aside. I think the only logically reasonable way of interpreting theists is to take them as postulating real physical things (made of some kind of matter, or other thing not yet understood by science). Obviously on firm evidence of such beings step one is to study them extensively. Find ways of harnessing, their capabilities. Once they were understood, and “god” derived spirits or materials were commonplace they would seem no more special than radioactivity or computers.
Often in fantasy settings with magic systems the author seems to realize that they have turned magic into a “mundane” thing that is no more special in there world than radioactivity is in ours. This cane lead them to draw a distiniction between two levels of magic, the explained “ordinary”, “mundane” magic (the one power in Wheel of time, “Wingardium Leviosa” in Harry Potter). And a deeper level of magic with less reasoned rules (the True Power in wheel of time, Harry’s mothers love protecting him in Harry potter).
(Sorry for the wall of text ramble, I think its an interesting distinction you are making.)