Do you never consider yourself part of a group which is smaller than “all humans”? Would you lose nothing if that group became smaller and less powerful?
The fact that a nation disappear doesn’t mean that there aren’t any descendents of members of that nation.
Biological descendants, yes, but they were usually much worse off (usually enslaved, having a higher chance to be genocided, or just having fewer rights or fewer possibilities)
Is is an topic where you can argue both the pro-group selection and the contra-group selection position
If you define group selection as the theory that genetic traits in individuals develop for the main purpose of making the group fitter, then I was never talking about group selection at all.
As a result no argument that doesn’t cite any papers will convince me.
If you only consider hard sciences as being exclusively important, and believe that all we know about and can infer from history and culture to be completely useless, than I doubt we have much chance to speak the same language in this case. People before the last century or so didn’t write much scientific papers in the modern sense, but they did write down what they’ve seen happening, and while there might be inaccuracies, it would be a waste to throw away everything which was ever written down which is not an article in scientific journal. The information content of old historical documents (and even the information content of myths) is not zero.
Values can chance fast culturally in a way that has nothing to do with genes. A few hundred years in which a nation forms has creates little distinct genetics that produce long-term evolutionary effects.
Of course, I completely agree with that. But I was never talking about genetics in the first place. I used the term of evolution as … I can’t find a better word… not strictly as a metaphor, but you get the idea. Would you also attack the term “stellar evolution” as it is used in astronomy because evolution only means genetics? If not, than think about that my usage, while still distinct from the genetic meaning you were talking about, is still closer to it than the term of “stellar evolution”.
People before the last century or so didn’t write scientific papers, but they did write down what they’ve seen happening, and while there might be inaccuracies, it would be a waste to throw away everything which was ever written down which is not an article in scientific journal. The information content of old historical documents (and even the information content of myths) is not zero.
In cases where modern science disagrees with what’s written in historical documents, there are usually strong reasons to prefer the conclusions of modern science.
Notice also that you used very definite language when you said “We should not forget that from an evolutionary perspective”. That’s a phrase to use when refering to established knowledge and not for positions for which there are arguments in favor but that are not established.
Of course, I completely agree with that. But I was never talking about genetics in the first place.
Okay if you didn’t mean it, then that’s fine.
Would you also attack the term “stellar evolution” as it is used in astronomy because evolution only means genetics?
If someone uses that term in astronomy they usually communicate in way that’s clear that they did’t mean genetic evolution. Your post didn’t have that clarity and thus deserve to be voted down for it. It’s motte-and-bailey.
In cases where modern science disagrees with what’s written in historical documents, there are usually strong reasons to prefer the conclusions of modern science.
Do you know of any modern scientific results which would prove that if members of a group stop supporting their group, than that group will not have reduced chances of survival?
It’s motte-and-bailey.
Don’t worry, I will not “go back to claiming” that “genetic traits in individuals develop for the main purpose of making the group fitter” after the discussion is over. :) I honestly didn’t held that belief. I only held (and still hold) the belief that the survival of the fittest can also apply in the case of competition between groups, which is not something which is disproved by the arguments against group selection.
On the other hand, this discussion made me think about the possibility of people confusing the above with the term “group selection”, and having read that “group selection is obsolete, not supported, and wrong” might conclude that it’s not true that groups adapt, change, and get stronger or get destroyed based on how fit (how well group members are supporting the group also making part of the fitness of the group) and how adaptive they are compared to other groups, although this is not what group selection is about.
Do you never consider yourself part of a group which is smaller than “all humans”? Would you lose nothing if that group became smaller and less powerful?
Biological descendants, yes, but they were usually much worse off (usually enslaved, having a higher chance to be genocided, or just having fewer rights or fewer possibilities)
If you define group selection as the theory that genetic traits in individuals develop for the main purpose of making the group fitter, then I was never talking about group selection at all.
If you only consider hard sciences as being exclusively important, and believe that all we know about and can infer from history and culture to be completely useless, than I doubt we have much chance to speak the same language in this case. People before the last century or so didn’t write much scientific papers in the modern sense, but they did write down what they’ve seen happening, and while there might be inaccuracies, it would be a waste to throw away everything which was ever written down which is not an article in scientific journal. The information content of old historical documents (and even the information content of myths) is not zero.
Of course, I completely agree with that. But I was never talking about genetics in the first place. I used the term of evolution as … I can’t find a better word… not strictly as a metaphor, but you get the idea. Would you also attack the term “stellar evolution” as it is used in astronomy because evolution only means genetics? If not, than think about that my usage, while still distinct from the genetic meaning you were talking about, is still closer to it than the term of “stellar evolution”.
In cases where modern science disagrees with what’s written in historical documents, there are usually strong reasons to prefer the conclusions of modern science.
Notice also that you used very definite language when you said “We should not forget that from an evolutionary perspective”. That’s a phrase to use when refering to established knowledge and not for positions for which there are arguments in favor but that are not established.
Okay if you didn’t mean it, then that’s fine.
If someone uses that term in astronomy they usually communicate in way that’s clear that they did’t mean genetic evolution. Your post didn’t have that clarity and thus deserve to be voted down for it. It’s motte-and-bailey.
Do you know of any modern scientific results which would prove that if members of a group stop supporting their group, than that group will not have reduced chances of survival?
Don’t worry, I will not “go back to claiming” that “genetic traits in individuals develop for the main purpose of making the group fitter” after the discussion is over. :) I honestly didn’t held that belief. I only held (and still hold) the belief that the survival of the fittest can also apply in the case of competition between groups, which is not something which is disproved by the arguments against group selection.
On the other hand, this discussion made me think about the possibility of people confusing the above with the term “group selection”, and having read that “group selection is obsolete, not supported, and wrong” might conclude that it’s not true that groups adapt, change, and get stronger or get destroyed based on how fit (how well group members are supporting the group also making part of the fitness of the group) and how adaptive they are compared to other groups, although this is not what group selection is about.