I’m just confused—if there’s agreement that MIRI isn’t particularly bad about this, then this seems to mostly preclude environmental attribution and suggest personal attribution?
I’ve read Moral Mazes and worked a few years in the corporate world at Fannie Mae. I’ve also talked a lot with Jessica and others in the MIRI cluster who had psychotic breaks. It seems to me like what happens to middle managers is in some important sense even worse than a psychotic break. Jessica, Zack, and Devi seem to be able to represent their perspectives now, to be able to engage with the hypothesis that some activity is in good faith, to consider symmetry considerations instead of reflexively siding with transgressors.
Ordinary statistical methods—and maybe empiricism more generally—cannot shed light on pervasive, systemic harms, when we lack the capacity to perform controlled experiments on many such systems. In such cases, we instead need rationalist methods, i.e. thinking carefully about mechanisms from first principles. We can also try to generalize efficiently from microcosms of the general phenomenon, e.g. generalizing from how people respond to unusually blatant abuse by individuals or institutions, to make inferences about the effects of pervasive abuse.
But corporate employers are not the only context people live in. My grandfather was an independent insurance broker for much of his career. I would expect someone working for a low-margin business in a competitive industry to sustain much less psychological damage, though I would also expect them to be paid less and maybe have a more strenuous job. I don’t think the guys out on the street a few blocks from my apartment selling fruit for cash face anything like what Jessica faced, and I’d be somewhat surprised if they ended up damaged the way the people in Moral Mazes seem damaged.
I’ve read Moral Mazes and worked a few years in the corporate world at Fannie Mae. I’ve also talked a lot with Jessica and others in the MIRI cluster who had psychotic breaks. It seems to me like what happens to middle managers is in some important sense even worse than a psychotic break. Jessica, Zack, and Devi seem to be able to represent their perspectives now, to be able to engage with the hypothesis that some activity is in good faith, to consider symmetry considerations instead of reflexively siding with transgressors.
Ordinary statistical methods—and maybe empiricism more generally—cannot shed light on pervasive, systemic harms, when we lack the capacity to perform controlled experiments on many such systems. In such cases, we instead need rationalist methods, i.e. thinking carefully about mechanisms from first principles. We can also try to generalize efficiently from microcosms of the general phenomenon, e.g. generalizing from how people respond to unusually blatant abuse by individuals or institutions, to make inferences about the effects of pervasive abuse.
But corporate employers are not the only context people live in. My grandfather was an independent insurance broker for much of his career. I would expect someone working for a low-margin business in a competitive industry to sustain much less psychological damage, though I would also expect them to be paid less and maybe have a more strenuous job. I don’t think the guys out on the street a few blocks from my apartment selling fruit for cash face anything like what Jessica faced, and I’d be somewhat surprised if they ended up damaged the way the people in Moral Mazes seem damaged.