Hmm. Why does a comment like that lead to a preference to males?
A comment like that comes from a person who isn’t even trying to imagine himself in a place of someone who is actually going to conceive and carry to term all those as many as they can children. A woman who reads this will correctly conclude that this isn’t a place where she is considered a person.
It goes beyond that. The idea that children should be made as means for a cause is equally disgusting.
While I think you’re making a good point, and LW should definitely listen to it, this:
A woman who reads this will correctly conclude that this isn’t a place where she is considered a person.
Is phrased a bit strongly, and
disgusting
Is a word I almost never see outside of a mindkilled context, though at least it’s in a sentence, here. (People who use “Disgusting” as the entirety of a sentence are basically wearing a giant “I AM MINDKILLED” flag as a coat, in my experience.)
Is a word I almost never see outside of a mindkilled context, though at least it’s in a sentence, here. (People who use “Disgusting” as the entirety of a sentence are basically wearing a giant “I AM MINDKILLED” flag as a coat, in my experience.)
baiter used the word “horrified” in his original post.
My thoughts on “horrifying” are pretty much the same, but that word hasn’t stuck out to me as much before. And your comments struck me as more likely to be downvoted for tone, even though the content is generally good. (Disclaimer: commenting based on my impressions of such things has failed me in the past.)
My thoughts on “horrifying” are pretty much the same, but that word hasn’t stuck out to me as much before.
So you argue against mentioning emotions in general?
And your comments struck me as more likely to be downvoted for tone
It is kinda funny how a forum which prides itself on not discussing politics is based on a political system (the anonymous democracy of karma). Every time a poster stops to consider whether his post will be upvoted or downvoted, he is engaging in politics.
So you argue against mentioning emotions in general?
I think that people should feel free to mention their emotions, but they should also express them in a manner that recognizes said emotions are two place words. X is horrified/disgusted by Y.
Something may be ‘disgusting’ you, and that’s a useful datapoint, but to say that something is ‘disgusting’ as if it’s an inherent characteristic of the thing pretty much puts a stopper to the conversation. What could be the response “No, it’s not”?
How would you feel about someone who said things like “Homosexuality is disgusting.” as opposed to someone saying something like “Homosexuality icks me out.”? I think you would probably see the latter sentence as less of a conversation-killer than the former.
Something may be ‘disgusting’ you, and that’s a useful datapoint, but to say that something is ‘disgusting’ as if it’s an inherent characteristic of the thing pretty much puts a stopper to the conversation. What could be the response “No, it’s not”?
OK, I see your point. Agree, phrasing my original post as “using children as means for an end disgusts me equally” would have been better.
It is kinda funny how a forum which prides itself on not discussing politics is based on a political system (the anonymous democracy of karma). Every time a poster stops to consider whether his post will be upvoted or downvoted, he is engaging in politics.
Politics as in “politics is the mind-killer” doesn’t mean “involvement with the polis”; it means “entanglement with factional identity”. We routinely touch on the former; insofar as “raising the sanity waterline” can be taken as a goal, for example, it’s inextricably political in that sense. But most of the stuff we’ve historically talked about here isn’t strongly factionalized in the mainstream.
If you’re posting on something that is and you stop to consider its reception, of course, you’re engaging in politics in both senses. But that’s the exception here, not the rule.
I agree with your point that the karma system very much encourages blue/green type of thinking. After all, “what will other people think of me?” is a primal instinct that makes it hard enough already to post your honest beliefs, without the karma system compounding it by showing a number above every post that basically says “X people think you have shut up and not said anything” after you say something controversial.
On the other hand, you have to consider that calling someone’s point of view “horrifying” accomplishes the exact same thing. So I have to agree with others that it’s better to use a more neutral tone when disagreeing.
Though to my experience, even women seem to think the the part that comes after is in fact more laborous that the carrying part—and that part can be equally shared between genders. Of course, it usually/traditionally isn’t, so I guess that’s a point towards male bias too.
A comment like that comes from a person who isn’t even trying to imagine himself in a place of someone who is actually going to conceive and carry to term all those as many as they can children.
While I understand the sentiment here (and I know a number of women who share it), I’m not sure this is correct. I was under the impression that eugenic impulses and pro-natalism were close to evenly split among the genders, and if there was an imbalance, it was that women were more likely to be interested in having babies and in having good babies. It may be easier to convince the marginal man than the marginal woman that they should have children, because the marginal man might have lower cost to do so, but that doesn’t imply that the arguing is mostly being done by men. (And if this particular argument looks focused on men, well, baiter did just look at the survey results!)
A woman who reads this will correctly conclude that this isn’t a place where she is considered a person.
“Considered a person” is a phrase that can mean a lot of things. I think the meaning you’re going for here is something like “bodily autonomy is respected,” but one of the other ways to interpret it is something like “desires are validated.” And I think that being harsh to natalism is one way to invalidate the desires of a lot of people, and I suspect that burden falls disproportionally on women.
Consider this baby announcement, where a significant portion of the response was ‘your baby is off-topic,’ which reminded me of rms. I don’t think that LW should have sections for people to talk about anything people want to be on-topic; I think specialization is a good idea. But I think that viewing these sorts of impulses and arguments as explicitly or implicitly anti-women is a mistake: imagine being one of James_Miller’s students who thought it was really sweet and humanizing for him to include a relaxing, personally relevant picture on the final exam, and then coming to LW and discovering that a highly upvoted response to that is ‘well, don’t satisfy those values, that would be condescending.’ Well, thanks.
A comment like that comes from a person who isn’t even trying to imagine himself in a place of someone who is actually going to conceive and carry to term all those as many as they can children.
While I understand the sentiment here (and I know a number of women who share it), I’m not sure this is correct. I was under the impression that eugenic impulses and pro-natalism were close to evenly split among the genders, and if there was an imbalance, it was that women were more likely to be interested in having babies and in having good babies.
FWIW, the percentage of people who have no children and don’t want any is pretty much the same among cis women (39/124 = 31.5%) as among all survey respondents, and so is that of people who don’t have children and are uncertain (38/124 = 30.6%).
Yes, but I woudn’t expect that sentiment to really be all that gender-biased, though.
Historically at least, I would expect that sentiment to be gender-biased. It’s easier to think of children as objects when you aren’t the one who spends your whole day with them.
Historically at least, I would expect that sentiment to be gender-biased.
Oh, historically sure! But I think these days in western culture, especially(1) among the group being discussed (people interested in this site), I wouldn’t expect to see a large gender bias to that sentiment.
(1) [possible projection fallacy going on here, hard to know]
Explicitly, if you ask people in this site how the burden of raising children should be divided between partners, most people of both genders will say it should be divided equally. But when musing about grand strategies, I think the males are still more likely to propose bullshit like “we the smart people totally should out-breed the stupid people” without giving it a second thought.
Explicitly, if you ask people in this site how the burden of raising children should be divided between partners, most people of both genders will say it should be divided equally.
That depends on what you mean by “divided equally”. I think it should be divided based on comparative advantage.
A comment like that comes from a person who isn’t even trying to imagine himself in a place of someone who is actually going to conceive and carry to term all those as many as they can children. A woman who reads this will correctly conclude that this isn’t a place where she is considered a person.
It goes beyond that. The idea that children should be made as means for a cause is equally disgusting.
While I think you’re making a good point, and LW should definitely listen to it, this:
Is phrased a bit strongly, and
Is a word I almost never see outside of a mindkilled context, though at least it’s in a sentence, here. (People who use “Disgusting” as the entirety of a sentence are basically wearing a giant “I AM MINDKILLED” flag as a coat, in my experience.)
baiter used the word “horrified” in his original post.
What do you think about horror?
My thoughts on “horrifying” are pretty much the same, but that word hasn’t stuck out to me as much before. And your comments struck me as more likely to be downvoted for tone, even though the content is generally good. (Disclaimer: commenting based on my impressions of such things has failed me in the past.)
So you argue against mentioning emotions in general?
It is kinda funny how a forum which prides itself on not discussing politics is based on a political system (the anonymous democracy of karma). Every time a poster stops to consider whether his post will be upvoted or downvoted, he is engaging in politics.
I think that people should feel free to mention their emotions, but they should also express them in a manner that recognizes said emotions are two place words. X is horrified/disgusted by Y.
Something may be ‘disgusting’ you, and that’s a useful datapoint, but to say that something is ‘disgusting’ as if it’s an inherent characteristic of the thing pretty much puts a stopper to the conversation. What could be the response “No, it’s not”?
How would you feel about someone who said things like “Homosexuality is disgusting.” as opposed to someone saying something like “Homosexuality icks me out.”? I think you would probably see the latter sentence as less of a conversation-killer than the former.
OK, I see your point. Agree, phrasing my original post as “using children as means for an end disgusts me equally” would have been better.
Politics as in “politics is the mind-killer” doesn’t mean “involvement with the polis”; it means “entanglement with factional identity”. We routinely touch on the former; insofar as “raising the sanity waterline” can be taken as a goal, for example, it’s inextricably political in that sense. But most of the stuff we’ve historically talked about here isn’t strongly factionalized in the mainstream.
If you’re posting on something that is and you stop to consider its reception, of course, you’re engaging in politics in both senses. But that’s the exception here, not the rule.
I agree with your point that the karma system very much encourages blue/green type of thinking. After all, “what will other people think of me?” is a primal instinct that makes it hard enough already to post your honest beliefs, without the karma system compounding it by showing a number above every post that basically says “X people think you have shut up and not said anything” after you say something controversial.
On the other hand, you have to consider that calling someone’s point of view “horrifying” accomplishes the exact same thing. So I have to agree with others that it’s better to use a more neutral tone when disagreeing.
Valid point. Thanks for the clarification.
Though to my experience, even women seem to think the the part that comes after is in fact more laborous that the carrying part—and that part can be equally shared between genders. Of course, it usually/traditionally isn’t, so I guess that’s a point towards male bias too.
And pregnancy itself is a personal existential risk.
With modern medicine not in any meaningful sense.
Depends on where you are.
While I understand the sentiment here (and I know a number of women who share it), I’m not sure this is correct. I was under the impression that eugenic impulses and pro-natalism were close to evenly split among the genders, and if there was an imbalance, it was that women were more likely to be interested in having babies and in having good babies. It may be easier to convince the marginal man than the marginal woman that they should have children, because the marginal man might have lower cost to do so, but that doesn’t imply that the arguing is mostly being done by men. (And if this particular argument looks focused on men, well, baiter did just look at the survey results!)
“Considered a person” is a phrase that can mean a lot of things. I think the meaning you’re going for here is something like “bodily autonomy is respected,” but one of the other ways to interpret it is something like “desires are validated.” And I think that being harsh to natalism is one way to invalidate the desires of a lot of people, and I suspect that burden falls disproportionally on women.
Consider this baby announcement, where a significant portion of the response was ‘your baby is off-topic,’ which reminded me of rms. I don’t think that LW should have sections for people to talk about anything people want to be on-topic; I think specialization is a good idea. But I think that viewing these sorts of impulses and arguments as explicitly or implicitly anti-women is a mistake: imagine being one of James_Miller’s students who thought it was really sweet and humanizing for him to include a relaxing, personally relevant picture on the final exam, and then coming to LW and discovering that a highly upvoted response to that is ‘well, don’t satisfy those values, that would be condescending.’ Well, thanks.
FWIW, the percentage of people who have no children and don’t want any is pretty much the same among cis women (39/124 = 31.5%) as among all survey respondents, and so is that of people who don’t have children and are uncertain (38/124 = 30.6%).
Yes, but I woudn’t expect that sentiment to really be all that gender-biased, though.
Historically at least, I would expect that sentiment to be gender-biased. It’s easier to think of children as objects when you aren’t the one who spends your whole day with them.
Oh, historically sure! But I think these days in western culture, especially(1) among the group being discussed (people interested in this site), I wouldn’t expect to see a large gender bias to that sentiment.
(1) [possible projection fallacy going on here, hard to know]
Explicitly, if you ask people in this site how the burden of raising children should be divided between partners, most people of both genders will say it should be divided equally. But when musing about grand strategies, I think the males are still more likely to propose bullshit like “we the smart people totally should out-breed the stupid people” without giving it a second thought.
That depends on what you mean by “divided equally”. I think it should be divided based on comparative advantage.
What definition of “considered a person” are you using that makes the above even a remotely valid deduction.
If you have problems with doing things as a means to an end, might I recommend a forum where consequentialism isn’t the default moral theory.
Oh dear me! Was I supposed to sign any papers before posting on this forum, proclaming my adherence to consequentialism? Will I get arrested now???
No, but simply declaring an instance of it disgusting is not an argument.
Neither is telling me to leave.