Bully is perhaps a strong word for ‘apply some degree of social pressure’.
If I were to try to find examples I would probably begin with a search for the word ‘should’. That term will give false positives and false negatives but it is a good start. Conversations regarding cryogenics advocacy would also produce a few hits. Some of the PUA discussions too, come to think of it but I wasn’t trying to go there.
Moralizing and ‘shoulding’ at others is just something humans do. Sometimes the Clippy persona can avoid that. It avoids the failure mode of expecting other people’s utility function to be subject to debate.
It avoids the failure mode of expecting other people’s utility function to be subject to debate.
I think people (human beings) do not have utility functions, and the closest things to it that we do have (i.e., values and goals) are subject to debate. I believe this is also the local consensus.
Are you perhaps saying that we expect other people’s values and goals to be more subject to debate than they actually are? If so, this is a novel idea for me. Can you give or link to a longer explanation?
Are you perhaps saying that we expect other people’s values and goals to be more subject to debate than they actually are? If so, this is a novel idea for me. Can you give or link to a longer explanation?
I refer to the difference between on one hand telling people their values are bad and on the other hand speaking as if the values of the subject can actually be determined by the speaker. The latter ignores the boundary between where one agent ends and the other begins. This is something humans often do, albeit more so outside of lesswrong than within. In my observation it is inversely correlated with maturity.
One of the things about Clippy is that nobody expects him to stop caring about paperclips just because someone else says so. In this Clippy is ironically shown more respect than a low status human may expect.
Thanks for the explanation. That helps me to understand why some people seem to value Clippy more than I do. (I think I personally have rarely been involved in the kind of phenomena that you describe.)
Can you point to some examples of this?
Bully is perhaps a strong word for ‘apply some degree of social pressure’.
If I were to try to find examples I would probably begin with a search for the word ‘should’. That term will give false positives and false negatives but it is a good start. Conversations regarding cryogenics advocacy would also produce a few hits. Some of the PUA discussions too, come to think of it but I wasn’t trying to go there.
Moralizing and ‘shoulding’ at others is just something humans do. Sometimes the Clippy persona can avoid that. It avoids the failure mode of expecting other people’s utility function to be subject to debate.
I think people (human beings) do not have utility functions, and the closest things to it that we do have (i.e., values and goals) are subject to debate. I believe this is also the local consensus.
Are you perhaps saying that we expect other people’s values and goals to be more subject to debate than they actually are? If so, this is a novel idea for me. Can you give or link to a longer explanation?
(Yes, utility function over simplistic, etc.)
I refer to the difference between on one hand telling people their values are bad and on the other hand speaking as if the values of the subject can actually be determined by the speaker. The latter ignores the boundary between where one agent ends and the other begins. This is something humans often do, albeit more so outside of lesswrong than within. In my observation it is inversely correlated with maturity.
One of the things about Clippy is that nobody expects him to stop caring about paperclips just because someone else says so. In this Clippy is ironically shown more respect than a low status human may expect.
Thanks for the explanation. That helps me to understand why some people seem to value Clippy more than I do. (I think I personally have rarely been involved in the kind of phenomena that you describe.)