I was interested to see what discussion this post would generate but I’m a little disappointed with the results. It looks like further evidence that instrumental rationality is hard and that the average lesswronger is not significantly better at it than the average person without a particular interest in rationality.
I’m going to throw out a bunch of suggestions for things that I think a rationalist should at least consider trying when approaching this specific problem as an exercise in instrumental rationality. I anticipate that people will immediately think of reasons why these ideas wouldn’t work or why they wouldn’t want to do them even if they did. Many of these will be legitimate criticisms but if you choose to comment along these lines please honestly ask yourself if these are ideas that you had already considered and rejected or whether your objections are in part confabulation.
One obvious reason for not trying any of these things is that the issue is just not that important to you and so doesn’t justify the effort but if you feel that way ask yourself how you would approach the problem if it was that important to you. I haven’t tried all these things myself. I rejected some as either too much effort for uncertain return on investment or in some cases had ethical qualms about them but I think they are the kind of things that anyone serious about instrumental rationality should have at least considered.
One thing that immediately jumped out at me as something of a hobbyist photographer was the casual remarks that people are ‘not photogenic’. It seems to me that the word ‘photogenic’ should be like a red flag to a rationalist bull. It should immediately trigger a desire to unpack the meaning of the word and figure out what objective properties of reality it is describing. In this context the next response should be to figure out what elements that contribute to this concept are most amenable to conscious, directed efforts to fix.
What people generally seem to mean by ‘not photogenic’ is ‘the pictures I’ve seen of this person do not seem to reflect the level of attractiveness that they possess in person’. Presumably people who are ‘not photogenic’ are not made of some different type of material that reacts differently to light than photogenic people. The problem must either be a lack of good quality photographs or an issue with uncomfortable body language when being photographed. Both of these are fixable given sufficient effort. I get the impression that at least some people in the thread didn’t take the relatively low cost steps of reading OkCupid’s advice on this issue or used the tool they provide for determining the picture that works best from the ones you have available.
OkCupid provides lots of data on OkTrends about what traits are considered attractive, broken down by gender and in other ways. With a little bit of research on this topic it is possible to make a list of areas where you could increase your attractiveness to the average person of the age, gender, etc. you are interested in attracting. Some of these are hard to fix (it is difficult for a man to make himself taller or a woman to make herself younger) but others can be improved with effort and are worthwhile goals in themselves (losing weight, increasing your salary). Figure out what the best ‘bang for the buck’ improvements appear to be for your particular situation and goals and expend effort on them.
A/B testing is a standard approach to optimizing online material. With a little effort it is possible to apply this to an online dating profile. At a bare minimum you can track any changes you make and record statistics on what improves your results and what makes them worse. If you wanted to get serious about this you could generate multiple profiles in different cities with similar demographics to your own and run parallel A/B tests rather than serial ones (this is one of those ‘ethical qualms’ approaches I mentioned). There are all kinds of shortcomings with the data collected in this way and with properly controlling variables but if you’re not collecting any data of this kind you are not maximizing the information you extract from the data potentially available to you.
While the data that sites like OkCupid make available is helpful there are lots of interesting questions that it doesn’t provide answers to. This being the Internet you could gather some of this data yourself. If you want to know what your competition looks like you could set up a fake profile for the kind of partner you wish to attract and see what kinds of messages they get (those damn ethical qualms again). This approach is potentially scalable to generate quite large amounts of data.
So if we’re all good instrumental rationalists why are we not doing these kinds of things? Well for one, they involve effort. Quite a lot of effort in some cases. Instrumental rationality is hard. If we’re not asking ourselves these kinds of questions though we’re not doing a very good job of instrumental rationality. How can we improve?
Presumably people who are ‘not photogenic’ are not made of some different type of material that reacts differently to light than photogenic people. The problem must either be a lack of good quality photographs or an issue with uncomfortable body language when being photographed.
The camera also adds (visual cues that make it look like it adds) weight, and messes with color. My best friend just got married and had lots of photos taken of her and her husband. He looks fine because he starts out skinny as a rail and his coloration works in the photos. But in the very same photos, she develops a blotchy complexion and her hair color looks unnatural and gross. And while she’s not fat, the extra ten pounds on the glossy photo nudge her a little that way. Her body language looks fine in photos (and if she were tensing up, wouldn’t she also look tense on video? Video of her looks much better), and the quality of the photographer or camera can’t be the issue because in the very same photograph her husband looks exactly like himself in real life and she looks weird.
I don’t know exactly what the problem might be with your friend’s wedding photos but in general the problem of how to make people look as good as possible in photos is quite well understood. There’s an entire industry devoted to doing it. I can list several technical errors that can appear to add weight or mess with color but these kinds of things are not unsolvable. Part of the skill of a good photographer is avoiding these problems. Photoshop can also be used to fix specific problems with colour reproduction. I would bet that an experienced portrait photographer could identify what went wrong with your friend’s pictures to produce a less than satisfactory result by examining them for a few minutes.
I suspect there may be genuine cases where certain people seem relatively less attractive in still photos than in person but this may be due to aspects of their personality or behaviour which the camera cannot capture. I doubt there is anyone however whose perceived attractiveness is not increased by a good photo relative to a bad one and in photography much of what constitutes ‘good’ has been figured out over the years.
“Knowing what to do” and being able to do it well are different. I have had good photographers take pictures of me. They have used the appropriate lighting and angle and helpfully tried to coach me in what to do—how to pose, how to smile, what to wear. And indeed, their pictures turn out better than most snapshots. That doesn’t mean that I am able to use their advice effectively—to hold an unforced smile and keep my eyes open at the same time, avoid tilting my head funny, or not look frustrated and impatient after the 50th shot. It’s a difficult skill for me, and while I expect I could be better with practice, it’s not high on my list of desired skills to improve. So I’m not photogenic. Which means merely that I don’t have these skills now and don’t pick up on them quickly, but when you look at my awful pictures it’s no different than if photogenic-ness were some immutable inherent quality.
(But I’m off the market anyway. On the upside, my partner was pleasantly surprised when he first met me in person that I was better-looking than my photos suggested.)
The OK trends blog to me cannot be read as serious social statistics analysis. It’s intent is to get hits and keep their sky high google page rank. It is almost entirely a marketing ploy, and I find it impossible to source them on topics like “what makes a good picture?”, “what makes a good message?”, “are you all a bunch of racists?”, &c.
One of the reasons that instrumental rationality is hard is that acquiring good data is hard. Imperfect data is generally better than no data however and there are other sources where you can find research into some of the same questions that OkCupid covers. Most of the advice in their ‘Don’t Be Ugly By Accident’ post is just standard stuff for portrait photography for example which any book on photography would cover in great detail.
I agree about OKT, as I noticed elsewhere. I also agree with Alicorn about the glasses, if that’s practical and if at-a-glance attractiveness is sufficiently high priority for you.
(SarahC and Relsqui’s profiles are very far above the OKCupid standard.)
Thanks for that. ; ) I don’t feel I can remark on the way most women use their OKC profiles, because I don’t read many of them and I try to stick to the extraordinary ones. But I can say that there are tons of men out there who are clearly parroting what they’ve been told will attract women, trying to come off as the perfect knight in shining armor while successfully avoiding showing any hint of personality. The effect is to make it seem like they’re trying to attract the similarly generic woman so they can get married and have generic children.
Yo estudie Espanol por cinco anos en a escuela. Mi Espanol no es florido. Yo quiero hablar con facilidan en el futuro. Mi vecindad tienen muchas personas que hablan Espanol.
I recommend looking up how to write the accents; some of these words change meaning without them. A common example is that “año” means “year” and “ano” means “anus.” Not that any sane reader wouldn’t know what you meant, but it’s worth knowing anyway. Some verbs change with accents in ways which are much more subtle: “estudio” is first person present and “estudió” is third person preterite.
A few specific errors, if you’re interested:
I’d use “estudiaba” rather than “estudié” because it refers to an ongoing process, rather than a single event in time. (By contrast, one might say “empezé estudiar español en el grado segundo,” because one began to study at one point in time.)
I think you made a typo writing “en la escuela”; I would probably have written “a la escuela” (at school, rather than in school), but I’m not sure you’re actually wrong. It might just be a style choice. Similarly, I’m guessing “facilidan” is meant to be “facilidad.”
Your “vecindad” is singular, so it “tiene” many Spanish-speakers, not “tienen.” And while “muchas personas” is technically correct, it’s the equivalent of saying “many persons” in English—more common would be “mucha gente” (many people).
I’m not fluent either, so I can’t promise that’s exhaustive, but I’ve studied Spanish for many years and used to use it at work a lot. :)
I have a theory that most of the women on OKCupid put almost no effort into it; they are not genuinely interested in meeting any of the OKCupid men; they are participating by some complex motivation somewhere between playing around in a virtual world and window shopping what might be out there on the off chance, extremely remote, that they decide they want to buy; and also to compare what is advertised in the virtual world with the reality that they see around them in the real world.
There are fun quizzes and they tell you stuff about your personality. That’s why I registered; my half-assed profile explicitly says I’m with someone and to message me only if you’re interested in platonic friendship. I have made friends with one really nice couple, though.
Bad posture (which I can fix when I’m standing at a mirror, but which shows up a lot on candid pictures.)
Trouble with facial expressions (I’m not sure how to put this … I’m not good at knowing how my face looks, and I have a dumb expression in most pictures. The general effect is “chipmunk.”)
Small total volume of pictures (neither I nor my friends are in the habit of taking lots of pictures of each other.)
One of my defects is—I’m not sure if there’s a shorter way to put this—knowing what my body position would look like to an observer. It’s why I can’t do something like, say, golf: you’ll tell me to change my form and I won’t understand what I’m doing wrong because I can’t “see” myself. I think that photogenic people and performers, apart from being physically attractive, are really good at “seeing” themselves.
I think that photogenic people and performers, apart from being physically attractive, are really good at “seeing” themselves.
I’m not sure I agree with this—or rather, I’m not sure this is the best model of what’s going on. My impression has always been (and this fits with my photo-taking advice elsewhere in this thread) that you don’t learn to see how you look when you’re doing something right—you learn how it feels to be in the correct position to do it. That is, someone who’s watching you might say “your back is curved, straighten it,” and you can straighten it, but you still don’t see what they see. You just find out what it feels like to have a straight back, and can try for that again later. I’ve never played golf, but I’d be surprised if good golfers are thinking about what they look like when they’re putting. I’d expect them instead to recognize the feeling of being in the correct posture from having done it before.
This kind of self awareness would be a good starting point to fix the problem if you decided it was important enough to you. There are various things you can do which plausibly claim to improve body awareness (I’ve heard the Alexander Technique mentioned around here though I don’t know anything about it myself) and good body language can be learned to some extent.
Even if you don’t think it’s worth the effort to work on these things however, if you go to a good professional portrait photographer they should be able to help you address these kinds of problems and get some good pictures. Portrait photography isn’t my main area of interest but I’ve read some books that cover the basics and they generally talk about techniques for getting the client relaxed and comfortable in order to minimize the effects of awkward body language and about things you can tell a person to do that will help them position themselves in a way that will produce good photos.
I like your ideas. Although some become harder to enact the less frequent your desired partner type is, which seems to be a problem for some people.
I’ll note that if you are only willing to spend limited time on it and have the choice between improving general attractiveness and A/B testing profiles, I would pick the former.
I’m currently aiming for the increased salary and improved fitness.
I don’t hold out much hope for OKcupid, I think I’ll do better just getting out more to the sorts of events that the people I am interested in might go to.
I was interested to see what discussion this post would generate but I’m a little disappointed with the results. It looks like further evidence that instrumental rationality is hard and that the average lesswronger is not significantly better at it than the average person without a particular interest in rationality.
I’m going to throw out a bunch of suggestions for things that I think a rationalist should at least consider trying when approaching this specific problem as an exercise in instrumental rationality. I anticipate that people will immediately think of reasons why these ideas wouldn’t work or why they wouldn’t want to do them even if they did. Many of these will be legitimate criticisms but if you choose to comment along these lines please honestly ask yourself if these are ideas that you had already considered and rejected or whether your objections are in part confabulation.
One obvious reason for not trying any of these things is that the issue is just not that important to you and so doesn’t justify the effort but if you feel that way ask yourself how you would approach the problem if it was that important to you. I haven’t tried all these things myself. I rejected some as either too much effort for uncertain return on investment or in some cases had ethical qualms about them but I think they are the kind of things that anyone serious about instrumental rationality should have at least considered.
One thing that immediately jumped out at me as something of a hobbyist photographer was the casual remarks that people are ‘not photogenic’. It seems to me that the word ‘photogenic’ should be like a red flag to a rationalist bull. It should immediately trigger a desire to unpack the meaning of the word and figure out what objective properties of reality it is describing. In this context the next response should be to figure out what elements that contribute to this concept are most amenable to conscious, directed efforts to fix.
What people generally seem to mean by ‘not photogenic’ is ‘the pictures I’ve seen of this person do not seem to reflect the level of attractiveness that they possess in person’. Presumably people who are ‘not photogenic’ are not made of some different type of material that reacts differently to light than photogenic people. The problem must either be a lack of good quality photographs or an issue with uncomfortable body language when being photographed. Both of these are fixable given sufficient effort. I get the impression that at least some people in the thread didn’t take the relatively low cost steps of reading OkCupid’s advice on this issue or used the tool they provide for determining the picture that works best from the ones you have available.
OkCupid provides lots of data on OkTrends about what traits are considered attractive, broken down by gender and in other ways. With a little bit of research on this topic it is possible to make a list of areas where you could increase your attractiveness to the average person of the age, gender, etc. you are interested in attracting. Some of these are hard to fix (it is difficult for a man to make himself taller or a woman to make herself younger) but others can be improved with effort and are worthwhile goals in themselves (losing weight, increasing your salary). Figure out what the best ‘bang for the buck’ improvements appear to be for your particular situation and goals and expend effort on them.
A/B testing is a standard approach to optimizing online material. With a little effort it is possible to apply this to an online dating profile. At a bare minimum you can track any changes you make and record statistics on what improves your results and what makes them worse. If you wanted to get serious about this you could generate multiple profiles in different cities with similar demographics to your own and run parallel A/B tests rather than serial ones (this is one of those ‘ethical qualms’ approaches I mentioned). There are all kinds of shortcomings with the data collected in this way and with properly controlling variables but if you’re not collecting any data of this kind you are not maximizing the information you extract from the data potentially available to you.
While the data that sites like OkCupid make available is helpful there are lots of interesting questions that it doesn’t provide answers to. This being the Internet you could gather some of this data yourself. If you want to know what your competition looks like you could set up a fake profile for the kind of partner you wish to attract and see what kinds of messages they get (those damn ethical qualms again). This approach is potentially scalable to generate quite large amounts of data.
So if we’re all good instrumental rationalists why are we not doing these kinds of things? Well for one, they involve effort. Quite a lot of effort in some cases. Instrumental rationality is hard. If we’re not asking ourselves these kinds of questions though we’re not doing a very good job of instrumental rationality. How can we improve?
The camera also adds (visual cues that make it look like it adds) weight, and messes with color. My best friend just got married and had lots of photos taken of her and her husband. He looks fine because he starts out skinny as a rail and his coloration works in the photos. But in the very same photos, she develops a blotchy complexion and her hair color looks unnatural and gross. And while she’s not fat, the extra ten pounds on the glossy photo nudge her a little that way. Her body language looks fine in photos (and if she were tensing up, wouldn’t she also look tense on video? Video of her looks much better), and the quality of the photographer or camera can’t be the issue because in the very same photograph her husband looks exactly like himself in real life and she looks weird.
I don’t know exactly what the problem might be with your friend’s wedding photos but in general the problem of how to make people look as good as possible in photos is quite well understood. There’s an entire industry devoted to doing it. I can list several technical errors that can appear to add weight or mess with color but these kinds of things are not unsolvable. Part of the skill of a good photographer is avoiding these problems. Photoshop can also be used to fix specific problems with colour reproduction. I would bet that an experienced portrait photographer could identify what went wrong with your friend’s pictures to produce a less than satisfactory result by examining them for a few minutes.
I suspect there may be genuine cases where certain people seem relatively less attractive in still photos than in person but this may be due to aspects of their personality or behaviour which the camera cannot capture. I doubt there is anyone however whose perceived attractiveness is not increased by a good photo relative to a bad one and in photography much of what constitutes ‘good’ has been figured out over the years.
“Knowing what to do” and being able to do it well are different. I have had good photographers take pictures of me. They have used the appropriate lighting and angle and helpfully tried to coach me in what to do—how to pose, how to smile, what to wear. And indeed, their pictures turn out better than most snapshots. That doesn’t mean that I am able to use their advice effectively—to hold an unforced smile and keep my eyes open at the same time, avoid tilting my head funny, or not look frustrated and impatient after the 50th shot. It’s a difficult skill for me, and while I expect I could be better with practice, it’s not high on my list of desired skills to improve. So I’m not photogenic. Which means merely that I don’t have these skills now and don’t pick up on them quickly, but when you look at my awful pictures it’s no different than if photogenic-ness were some immutable inherent quality.
(But I’m off the market anyway. On the upside, my partner was pleasantly surprised when he first met me in person that I was better-looking than my photos suggested.)
xxxxx
One of the reasons that instrumental rationality is hard is that acquiring good data is hard. Imperfect data is generally better than no data however and there are other sources where you can find research into some of the same questions that OkCupid covers. Most of the advice in their ‘Don’t Be Ugly By Accident’ post is just standard stuff for portrait photography for example which any book on photography would cover in great detail.
I agree about OKT, as I noticed elsewhere. I also agree with Alicorn about the glasses, if that’s practical and if at-a-glance attractiveness is sufficiently high priority for you.
Thanks for that. ; ) I don’t feel I can remark on the way most women use their OKC profiles, because I don’t read many of them and I try to stick to the extraordinary ones. But I can say that there are tons of men out there who are clearly parroting what they’ve been told will attract women, trying to come off as the perfect knight in shining armor while successfully avoiding showing any hint of personality. The effect is to make it seem like they’re trying to attract the similarly generic woman so they can get married and have generic children.
I recommend looking up how to write the accents; some of these words change meaning without them. A common example is that “año” means “year” and “ano” means “anus.” Not that any sane reader wouldn’t know what you meant, but it’s worth knowing anyway. Some verbs change with accents in ways which are much more subtle: “estudio” is first person present and “estudió” is third person preterite.
A few specific errors, if you’re interested:
I’d use “estudiaba” rather than “estudié” because it refers to an ongoing process, rather than a single event in time. (By contrast, one might say “empezé estudiar español en el grado segundo,” because one began to study at one point in time.)
I think you made a typo writing “en la escuela”; I would probably have written “a la escuela” (at school, rather than in school), but I’m not sure you’re actually wrong. It might just be a style choice. Similarly, I’m guessing “facilidan” is meant to be “facilidad.”
Your “vecindad” is singular, so it “tiene” many Spanish-speakers, not “tienen.” And while “muchas personas” is technically correct, it’s the equivalent of saying “many persons” in English—more common would be “mucha gente” (many people).
I’m not fluent either, so I can’t promise that’s exhaustive, but I’ve studied Spanish for many years and used to use it at work a lot. :)
I would advise you to wear smaller glasses if that is possible given your eyesight.
There are fun quizzes and they tell you stuff about your personality. That’s why I registered; my half-assed profile explicitly says I’m with someone and to message me only if you’re interested in platonic friendship. I have made friends with one really nice couple, though.
I know why I’m not photogenic:
Bad posture (which I can fix when I’m standing at a mirror, but which shows up a lot on candid pictures.)
Trouble with facial expressions (I’m not sure how to put this … I’m not good at knowing how my face looks, and I have a dumb expression in most pictures. The general effect is “chipmunk.”)
Small total volume of pictures (neither I nor my friends are in the habit of taking lots of pictures of each other.)
One of my defects is—I’m not sure if there’s a shorter way to put this—knowing what my body position would look like to an observer. It’s why I can’t do something like, say, golf: you’ll tell me to change my form and I won’t understand what I’m doing wrong because I can’t “see” myself. I think that photogenic people and performers, apart from being physically attractive, are really good at “seeing” themselves.
I’m not sure I agree with this—or rather, I’m not sure this is the best model of what’s going on. My impression has always been (and this fits with my photo-taking advice elsewhere in this thread) that you don’t learn to see how you look when you’re doing something right—you learn how it feels to be in the correct position to do it. That is, someone who’s watching you might say “your back is curved, straighten it,” and you can straighten it, but you still don’t see what they see. You just find out what it feels like to have a straight back, and can try for that again later. I’ve never played golf, but I’d be surprised if good golfers are thinking about what they look like when they’re putting. I’d expect them instead to recognize the feeling of being in the correct posture from having done it before.
This kind of self awareness would be a good starting point to fix the problem if you decided it was important enough to you. There are various things you can do which plausibly claim to improve body awareness (I’ve heard the Alexander Technique mentioned around here though I don’t know anything about it myself) and good body language can be learned to some extent.
Even if you don’t think it’s worth the effort to work on these things however, if you go to a good professional portrait photographer they should be able to help you address these kinds of problems and get some good pictures. Portrait photography isn’t my main area of interest but I’ve read some books that cover the basics and they generally talk about techniques for getting the client relaxed and comfortable in order to minimize the effects of awkward body language and about things you can tell a person to do that will help them position themselves in a way that will produce good photos.
I like your ideas. Although some become harder to enact the less frequent your desired partner type is, which seems to be a problem for some people.
I’ll note that if you are only willing to spend limited time on it and have the choice between improving general attractiveness and A/B testing profiles, I would pick the former.
I’m currently aiming for the increased salary and improved fitness.
I don’t hold out much hope for OKcupid, I think I’ll do better just getting out more to the sorts of events that the people I am interested in might go to.