Quick note that the LW team is still processing this thread (different team members had different takes on different aspects of it). Sometime next week I expect us to have something more substantive to say, but it seemed better to take some time away from it to gather our thoughts and get in sync about it.
If I may offer my opinion, it seems to me that this debate was a proxy for a long-term problem, which I would roughly describe as “how much exactness should be the norm on LW?”.
When Eliezer was writing the Sequences, it was simple: whatever he considered right, that was the norm. There were articles with numbers and equations, articles that quoted scientific research, articles that expressed personal opinion or preference, and articles with fictional evidence. And because all those articles came from the same person, together they created the style that has attracted many readers.
But, now that it is a community blog, there are people with preference for numbers and equations, and people with preference for personal opinion. It’s like they speak different languages. And sometimes they disagree with each other. And when they do, it is difficult to resolve the situation, because each of them expects different norms of… what kind of argument is valid, and what kind of content belongs here.
If we limit ourselves to things we can define and describe exactly, the extreme of that would be merely discussing equations. Because the real world is messy and complicated, and people are even more messy and complicated. And there is nothing wrong with the equations—the articles on math or decision theory are great and definitely a part of the LW intellectual tradition—but we also want to use rationality in real life, as humans, in interaction with other humans, and we want to optimize this, even if we cannot describe it exactly.
The opposite extreme, obviously, is introducing all kinds of woo. Meditation feels right, and Buddhism feels right, and Circling feels right, and… dunno, maybe tomorrow praying will feel right, and homeopathy will feel right. (And even if they won’t, the question is what algoritm will draw the line. Is it “I was introduced to it by a person identifying as a rationalist” vs “I have already seen this done by people who don’t identify as rationalists”?)
I would like this community to retain the ability to speak both languages. But it doesn’t work well when different people specialize in different languages. At best, it would be a website that hosts two kinds of completely unrelated topics. At worst, those two groups would attack each other.
That was an interesting read, not in terms of reading the discussion of the obvious object level or the meta level, but simply observing the attempts at pretend-rational behavior. Both Said and habryka clearly got triggered and exasperated, probably due to their past experiences in similar situations, yet acted as if they were not. I suspect they didn’t even admit their emotional state to themselves, instead taking pride in keeping the conversation “civil”. I am not sure whether this approach was productive or counterproductive.
A standard advice in this situation is to take a breather from a discussion whenever you feel that your emotional state is not where you want it to be. Sadly, noticing one’s emotional state is not a natural skill, even less so for those with more “logical” mind, which comprise the majority of this forum’s participants.
My guess would be that trying to change the norms of discourse to address the passive aggressive yet overtly polite swipes at each other that are the hallmark of this thread is unlikely to be productive, since they do not address the root of the issue: PWE (posting while exasperated). I hope that the LW team spends some time talking about this particular issue, as well.
One hopeful sign is the decision that “it seemed better to take some time away from it to gather our thoughts” and to presumably have the time to cool down and process one’s feelings, as well.
Quick note that the LW team is still processing this thread (different team members had different takes on different aspects of it). Sometime next week I expect us to have something more substantive to say, but it seemed better to take some time away from it to gather our thoughts and get in sync about it.
If I may offer my opinion, it seems to me that this debate was a proxy for a long-term problem, which I would roughly describe as “how much exactness should be the norm on LW?”.
When Eliezer was writing the Sequences, it was simple: whatever he considered right, that was the norm. There were articles with numbers and equations, articles that quoted scientific research, articles that expressed personal opinion or preference, and articles with fictional evidence. And because all those articles came from the same person, together they created the style that has attracted many readers.
But, now that it is a community blog, there are people with preference for numbers and equations, and people with preference for personal opinion. It’s like they speak different languages. And sometimes they disagree with each other. And when they do, it is difficult to resolve the situation, because each of them expects different norms of… what kind of argument is valid, and what kind of content belongs here.
If we limit ourselves to things we can define and describe exactly, the extreme of that would be merely discussing equations. Because the real world is messy and complicated, and people are even more messy and complicated. And there is nothing wrong with the equations—the articles on math or decision theory are great and definitely a part of the LW intellectual tradition—but we also want to use rationality in real life, as humans, in interaction with other humans, and we want to optimize this, even if we cannot describe it exactly.
The opposite extreme, obviously, is introducing all kinds of woo. Meditation feels right, and Buddhism feels right, and Circling feels right, and… dunno, maybe tomorrow praying will feel right, and homeopathy will feel right. (And even if they won’t, the question is what algoritm will draw the line. Is it “I was introduced to it by a person identifying as a rationalist” vs “I have already seen this done by people who don’t identify as rationalists”?)
I would like this community to retain the ability to speak both languages. But it doesn’t work well when different people specialize in different languages. At best, it would be a website that hosts two kinds of completely unrelated topics. At worst, those two groups would attack each other.
That was an interesting read, not in terms of reading the discussion of the obvious object level or the meta level, but simply observing the attempts at pretend-rational behavior. Both Said and habryka clearly got triggered and exasperated, probably due to their past experiences in similar situations, yet acted as if they were not. I suspect they didn’t even admit their emotional state to themselves, instead taking pride in keeping the conversation “civil”. I am not sure whether this approach was productive or counterproductive.
A standard advice in this situation is to take a breather from a discussion whenever you feel that your emotional state is not where you want it to be. Sadly, noticing one’s emotional state is not a natural skill, even less so for those with more “logical” mind, which comprise the majority of this forum’s participants.
My guess would be that trying to change the norms of discourse to address the passive aggressive yet overtly polite swipes at each other that are the hallmark of this thread is unlikely to be productive, since they do not address the root of the issue: PWE (posting while exasperated). I hope that the LW team spends some time talking about this particular issue, as well.
One hopeful sign is the decision that “it seemed better to take some time away from it to gather our thoughts” and to presumably have the time to cool down and process one’s feelings, as well.