I mean, I think Inadequate Equilibria is on-par with all of Eliezer’s other writing (I actually think in terms of insight-per-page it is much denser than the average section of the sequence)
I do not concur with your evaluation. (But there is not much point in discussing this further, so we can leave it at that.)
Yes, we can judge [Eliezer’s] reasons, but independently of his reasons, his absence is obviously a major loss for the site.
Is it?
Here’s the thing: the loss of Eliezer, the author of the ~2007–2011 era Less Wrong posts (and comments) is, indeed, a major one. But it’s futile to bemoan that loss, as it was inflicted only by time. The loss we must examine instead is the counterfactual loss. Eliezer could be writing on Less Wrong right now (and for the last decade or so), but is not, and has not been; is that a major loss?
Suppose (as seems to be the implication of your comments) that Eliezer would write for Less Wrong if, and only if, the environment (both technical and social) were comparable to that which now exists on Facebook (his current platform of choice). It seems reasonable to conclude that Eliezer’s writings, therefore, would also be more or less the things he now is (and has been) writing on Facebook; the only difference would be that those very same writings would be hosted here—and the same discussion, too, would take place here—instead of on Facebook.
That we do not have these things—is that a great loss?
As I have alluded to earlier, I think the answer is “no”. In fact, I think that such writings, and (especially! emphatically!) the sorts of discussions that I have seen taking place in the comments on Eliezer’s Facebook posts, would substantially lower the average quality of Less Wrong.
There is some value to (counterfactually) having Eliezer’s stuff here, instead of on Facebook: accessibility, searchability, linkability, archiving, etc.—all the things I’ve noted, in the past. But would it be worth the corruption, the dismantling, of Less Wrong’s epistemic standards? I think not.
So, going back, is there anyone else who you would trust to settle the issue of norms on this reasonably decisively? How about Vaniver, or lukeprog, or Kaj Sotala, or Anna Salamon, or Jacobian, or Zvi, Raymond, or So8res? I am happy to set up some kind of board, or court here that helps us settle this issue, but I think it being unresolved is causing massive ongoing costs for the site.
There is no need to go that far (though of course I’ll participate if you feel it’s necessary). But I am happy to take your word for the views of any of these people; I certainly don’t disbelieve you when you say that such-and-such Less Wrong regular (or historical regular) has expressed to you such-and-such a view.
But what is the value in that? If, let us say, Zvi (to pick an author whose posts I’ve certainly found to have a lot of value, in the past) says “I don’t comment on Less Wrong because I don’t like responding to comments that challenge me to justify my claims, or provide examples, or explain my terms”, should I take this to mean that such comments are detrimental—or should I instead downgrade my assessment of Zvi’s posts, ideas, etc.? “One man’s modus ponens…”, after all…
You write as if an author’s posts simply have value, because of who the author is, on the basis of past performance, and regardless of any actual qualities of the actual (new) posts! But surely this is an absurd view? I have written things in the past, that are useful and good; and yet suppose that I were invited to write for a venue where my ideas would never be challenged, where my writing were not subjected to scrutiny, where no interested and intelligent readers would ask probing questions… shouldn’t I expect my writing (and my ideas!) to degrade? Shouldn’t I expect the proportion of dross and nonsense in my output to increase? Why should I expect to maintain whatever previous level of quality (modest as it may have already been) my writing had possessed? (Think of all the popular authors who, having “made it” in the literary world, gained the proverbial “immunity from editors”, and proceeded to write, and to publish, piles of of mediocre-at-best scribblings…)
In any case, it’s a moot point… you’ve asked me to abstain from commenting on posts like this, and in ways like this, and so I will. No further action is necessary.
Suppose (as seems to be the implication of your comments) that Eliezer would write for Less Wrong if, and only if, the environment (both technical and social) were comparable to that which now exists on Facebook (his current platform of choice).
I want to note that Eliezer now seems to spend more time on Twitter than on Facebook, and the discussion on Twitter is even lower quality than on Facebook or simply absent (i.e., I rarely see substantial back-and-forth discussions on Eliezer’s Twitter posts). This, plus the fact that the LW team already made a bunch of changes at Eliezer’s request to try to lure him back, without effect, makes me distrust habryka’s explanations in the grandparent comment.
Thanks, I do want to again say that I do appreciate a lot of your contributions to LessWrong.
To clarify one more thing:
You write as if an author’s posts simply have value, because of who the author is, on the basis of past performance, and regardless of any actual qualities of the actual (new) posts! But surely this is an absurd view?
I am not trying to argue that an author’s posts simply have value, only that the author writing at all is a necessary requirement for their posts to exist and therefore have value. A world in which all of our best authors leave the site, is one in which we see little to no progress. However, a world in which they stick around is definitely not sufficient for making real progress, and I agree with that, though I would guess that we have significant disagreements about what kind of interaction with the site will be sufficient for progress.
I think it’s a problem that you don’t see how this comment thread exemplifies a form of communication that people often interpret as hostile rather than attempting to clarify. You’ve also admitted in the past that you consider some of how you comment to be policing the standards you think LW should uphold. Obviously not everyone agrees with you as evidenced by the difference between what you strongly upvote and what the rest of LW strongly upvotes. I don’t find it surprising or bad that some people choose to interpret you as sealioning in light of this.
You’ve also admitted in the past that you consider some of how you comment to be policing the standards you think LW should uphold.
What a bizarre thing, to use the word “admitted” here!
As if it is a bad thing, that users should help to enforce the norms of a community! As if it is a bad thing, that users should hold a forum to good and beneficial standards! As if it is—somehow, improbably—a bad thing, to speak up in defense of the norms of good discourse and good thinking—on Less Wrong, of all places!
Should I take this to be an admission that you do not do these things? And if so—why in the world not?
as evidenced by the difference between what you strongly upvote and what the rest of LW strongly upvotes
I do not have access to this information. Do you? How?
sealioning
If ever there was a strong signal of bad faith, using such terms as ‘sealioning’ is definitely it.
[...] and yet suppose that I were invited to write for a venue where my ideas would never be challenged, where my writing were not subjected to scrutiny, where no interested and intelligent readers would ask probing questions… shouldn’t I expect my writing (and my ideas!) to degrade?
I’m not completely swayed either way, but I want to acknowledge this as an important and interesting point.
I believe there is a possible middle way between two extremes:
1) There are no questions, ever.
2) When someone writes “today I had an ice-cream and it made me happy”, they get a comment: “define ‘happiness’, or you are not rational”.
As Habryka already explained somewhere, the problem is not asking question per se, but the specific low-effort way.
I assume that most of has some idea of what “authentic” (or other words) means, but also it would be difficult to provide a full definition. So the person who asks should provide some hints about the purpose of the question. Are they a p-zombie who has absolutely no idea what words refer to? Do they see multiple possible interpretations of the word? In that case it would help to point at the difference, which would allow the author to say “the first one” or maybe “neither, it’s actually more like X”. Do they see some contradiction in the naive definition? For example, what would “authentic” refer to, if the person simply has two brain modules that want contradictory things? Again, it would help to ask the specific thing. Otherwise there is a risk that the author would spend 20 minutes trying to write a good answer, only to get “nope, that’s not what I wanted” in return.
Asking a short question is not necessarily low effort. Asking the right question can actually take a lot of mental work, even if it ends up being a single sentence long. It takes a sharp knife to cleanly cut at the joints of an argument.
As mentioned elsewhere, I really, really don’t have an understanding of what an “authentic relationship” means in this context, and therefore it was an astute question to ask. It helped clarify the qualms I had about the article as well.
And it took all of 2 seconds to read, which I really appreciate.
I do not concur with your evaluation. (But there is not much point in discussing this further, so we can leave it at that.)
Is it?
Here’s the thing: the loss of Eliezer, the author of the ~2007–2011 era Less Wrong posts (and comments) is, indeed, a major one. But it’s futile to bemoan that loss, as it was inflicted only by time. The loss we must examine instead is the counterfactual loss. Eliezer could be writing on Less Wrong right now (and for the last decade or so), but is not, and has not been; is that a major loss?
Suppose (as seems to be the implication of your comments) that Eliezer would write for Less Wrong if, and only if, the environment (both technical and social) were comparable to that which now exists on Facebook (his current platform of choice). It seems reasonable to conclude that Eliezer’s writings, therefore, would also be more or less the things he now is (and has been) writing on Facebook; the only difference would be that those very same writings would be hosted here—and the same discussion, too, would take place here—instead of on Facebook.
That we do not have these things—is that a great loss?
As I have alluded to earlier, I think the answer is “no”. In fact, I think that such writings, and (especially! emphatically!) the sorts of discussions that I have seen taking place in the comments on Eliezer’s Facebook posts, would substantially lower the average quality of Less Wrong.
There is some value to (counterfactually) having Eliezer’s stuff here, instead of on Facebook: accessibility, searchability, linkability, archiving, etc.—all the things I’ve noted, in the past. But would it be worth the corruption, the dismantling, of Less Wrong’s epistemic standards? I think not.
There is no need to go that far (though of course I’ll participate if you feel it’s necessary). But I am happy to take your word for the views of any of these people; I certainly don’t disbelieve you when you say that such-and-such Less Wrong regular (or historical regular) has expressed to you such-and-such a view.
But what is the value in that? If, let us say, Zvi (to pick an author whose posts I’ve certainly found to have a lot of value, in the past) says “I don’t comment on Less Wrong because I don’t like responding to comments that challenge me to justify my claims, or provide examples, or explain my terms”, should I take this to mean that such comments are detrimental—or should I instead downgrade my assessment of Zvi’s posts, ideas, etc.? “One man’s modus ponens…”, after all…
You write as if an author’s posts simply have value, because of who the author is, on the basis of past performance, and regardless of any actual qualities of the actual (new) posts! But surely this is an absurd view? I have written things in the past, that are useful and good; and yet suppose that I were invited to write for a venue where my ideas would never be challenged, where my writing were not subjected to scrutiny, where no interested and intelligent readers would ask probing questions… shouldn’t I expect my writing (and my ideas!) to degrade? Shouldn’t I expect the proportion of dross and nonsense in my output to increase? Why should I expect to maintain whatever previous level of quality (modest as it may have already been) my writing had possessed? (Think of all the popular authors who, having “made it” in the literary world, gained the proverbial “immunity from editors”, and proceeded to write, and to publish, piles of of mediocre-at-best scribblings…)
In any case, it’s a moot point… you’ve asked me to abstain from commenting on posts like this, and in ways like this, and so I will. No further action is necessary.
I want to note that Eliezer now seems to spend more time on Twitter than on Facebook, and the discussion on Twitter is even lower quality than on Facebook or simply absent (i.e., I rarely see substantial back-and-forth discussions on Eliezer’s Twitter posts). This, plus the fact that the LW team already made a bunch of changes at Eliezer’s request to try to lure him back, without effect, makes me distrust habryka’s explanations in the grandparent comment.
Thanks, I do want to again say that I do appreciate a lot of your contributions to LessWrong.
To clarify one more thing:
I am not trying to argue that an author’s posts simply have value, only that the author writing at all is a necessary requirement for their posts to exist and therefore have value. A world in which all of our best authors leave the site, is one in which we see little to no progress. However, a world in which they stick around is definitely not sufficient for making real progress, and I agree with that, though I would guess that we have significant disagreements about what kind of interaction with the site will be sufficient for progress.
I think it’s a problem that you don’t see how this comment thread exemplifies a form of communication that people often interpret as hostile rather than attempting to clarify. You’ve also admitted in the past that you consider some of how you comment to be policing the standards you think LW should uphold. Obviously not everyone agrees with you as evidenced by the difference between what you strongly upvote and what the rest of LW strongly upvotes. I don’t find it surprising or bad that some people choose to interpret you as sealioning in light of this.
What a bizarre thing, to use the word “admitted” here!
As if it is a bad thing, that users should help to enforce the norms of a community! As if it is a bad thing, that users should hold a forum to good and beneficial standards! As if it is—somehow, improbably—a bad thing, to speak up in defense of the norms of good discourse and good thinking—on Less Wrong, of all places!
Should I take this to be an admission that you do not do these things? And if so—why in the world not?
I do not have access to this information. Do you? How?
If ever there was a strong signal of bad faith, using such terms as ‘sealioning’ is definitely it.
I’m not completely swayed either way, but I want to acknowledge this as an important and interesting point.
I believe there is a possible middle way between two extremes:
1) There are no questions, ever.
2) When someone writes “today I had an ice-cream and it made me happy”, they get a comment: “define ‘happiness’, or you are not rational”.
As Habryka already explained somewhere, the problem is not asking question per se, but the specific low-effort way.
I assume that most of has some idea of what “authentic” (or other words) means, but also it would be difficult to provide a full definition. So the person who asks should provide some hints about the purpose of the question. Are they a p-zombie who has absolutely no idea what words refer to? Do they see multiple possible interpretations of the word? In that case it would help to point at the difference, which would allow the author to say “the first one” or maybe “neither, it’s actually more like X”. Do they see some contradiction in the naive definition? For example, what would “authentic” refer to, if the person simply has two brain modules that want contradictory things? Again, it would help to ask the specific thing. Otherwise there is a risk that the author would spend 20 minutes trying to write a good answer, only to get “nope, that’s not what I wanted” in return.
Asking a short question is not necessarily low effort. Asking the right question can actually take a lot of mental work, even if it ends up being a single sentence long. It takes a sharp knife to cleanly cut at the joints of an argument.
As mentioned elsewhere, I really, really don’t have an understanding of what an “authentic relationship” means in this context, and therefore it was an astute question to ask. It helped clarify the qualms I had about the article as well.
And it took all of 2 seconds to read, which I really appreciate.