Well, I want to make sure I understand it. Which of the following do you mean:
a. If British people become more productive that productivity won’t translate into more charity/inventions that will save lives?
b. Education does not improve productivity?
c. Art museums are not an important part of education (at least not in terms of scientific/economic productivity)?
d. Blue Rigi does not improve the overall quality of the Tate?
e. Actually none of the above, but Blue Rigi was simply priced too high?
To clarify/address ArisKatsaris’s points:
I am not attempting to make an argument in this post.
I am trying to identify the point at which datadataeverywhere first has a problem. For instance, I don’t need to discuss whether the cultural given (fetish?) that our museums will seek out originals is easily mutable if his objection really starts earlier in my list. For instance, is it possible that the education of British children is a better way to save African lives than the immediate purchase of mosquito nets? If that’s implausible, then the question of how one educates a child is irrelevant to this discussion.
Aris’ expanded explanation is excellent, and what I would have tried to say at first.
I find it pretty implausible that the education of British children in the artwork of an 18th century British landscape painter is a better method of saving African lives than a proven method that currently saves lives and is reckoned to be one of the cheapest methods per life saved.
Over the long term, how we educate children probably determines a great deal about what our world looks like in the future. However, unless you have an oracle, or are educating them in something specifically related, such as the concept of Efficient Charity, I would place the upper and lower guesses of the median increase in QALY/DALY well below and above zero, respectively, indicating that you shouldn’t do it on that basis.
Downvoted for extreme amounts of muddled thinking, and a line of argumentation that’s so hole-ridden it gives me a headache.
Also he has answered you already: He argued that displaying the original Blue Rigi as opposed to a facsimile doesn’t contribute one iota to the education of any child. You either didn’t pay attention, or are trying to wear him out by keep on asking something he already answered.
Muddled thinking is when your line of argumentation “painting contributes to museum, museum contributes to education, education contributes to productivity, productivity contributes to charity” implies there’s some single metric each of these increase, which can be traced from one to the other simply, step by step.
An original painting may contribute to museum’s “quality”, but it needn’t contribute to the educational quality of the museum, so you can’t transfer that sort of contribution down that next step.
An art museum contributes to education, but it needn’t contribute to education in such a manner that it becomes the sort of “productivity” that saves lives. Art is about aesthetics, which contribute to quality of life, but not the preservation of such. Art contributes, but it contributes differently—and you were told that already.
Education may contribute to productivity, but depending what you’re educated to value, it may increase or decrease the amounts of charity provided. For example, if you’re taught to value the presence of original paintings, you’ll probably give money to keep original paintings in your nation, not to save lives.
Wanting an original painting, as opposed to a copy, isn’t about educating, it’s about satisfying a fetish. A national fetish in this case, much the way that Greece was obsessing with Olympic Games and museums to house the unreturned Parthenon marbles, while in the meantime its economy was going down the crapper.
In that way I could easily argue that the original is of less utility than a facsimile, exactly because it encourages such unproductive fetishes, while being aesthetically identical.
In that way I could easily argue that the original is of less utility than a facsimile, exactly because it encourages such unproductive fetishes, while being aesthetically identical.
It seems to me that scarcity and authenticity can both play into aesthetics, but besides those two contextual variables that’s spot on.
I don’t think the preference for original paintings is just a fetish. Accurate color reproduction is hard [1], and in many cases, it’s possible to get close enough to the original to see the brushstrokes and texture. I don’t think we’re at the tech yet for really excellent reproductions, but please let me know if I’m missing something.
Originals vs. reproductions may not be worth the cost, but that’s a different question.
[1] The colors in a painting may change with time, but reproductions add another layer of inaccuracy.
I don’t know how good color reproduction can be if a major effort is made. I do know that if I go to the museum shop after an exhibition, I’m always struck by how far off the colors are compared to the paintings.
Texture reproduction is actually an easier problem than color reproduction, and is pretty much solved at less than a $5000 cost. Color is hard partially because people want the painting to look the same under all lighting conditions; under just one, we can solve the problem pretty well, but under all, we nearly need to use the same materials as were originally used. Needless to say, the cost of reproductions scales with the quality, and can become quite high.
Well, I want to make sure I understand it. Which of the following do you mean: a. If British people become more productive that productivity won’t translate into more charity/inventions that will save lives? b. Education does not improve productivity? c. Art museums are not an important part of education (at least not in terms of scientific/economic productivity)? d. Blue Rigi does not improve the overall quality of the Tate? e. Actually none of the above, but Blue Rigi was simply priced too high?
To clarify/address ArisKatsaris’s points:
I am not attempting to make an argument in this post. I am trying to identify the point at which datadataeverywhere first has a problem. For instance, I don’t need to discuss whether the cultural given (fetish?) that our museums will seek out originals is easily mutable if his objection really starts earlier in my list. For instance, is it possible that the education of British children is a better way to save African lives than the immediate purchase of mosquito nets? If that’s implausible, then the question of how one educates a child is irrelevant to this discussion.
Aris’ expanded explanation is excellent, and what I would have tried to say at first.
I find it pretty implausible that the education of British children in the artwork of an 18th century British landscape painter is a better method of saving African lives than a proven method that currently saves lives and is reckoned to be one of the cheapest methods per life saved.
Over the long term, how we educate children probably determines a great deal about what our world looks like in the future. However, unless you have an oracle, or are educating them in something specifically related, such as the concept of Efficient Charity, I would place the upper and lower guesses of the median increase in QALY/DALY well below and above zero, respectively, indicating that you shouldn’t do it on that basis.
Downvoted for extreme amounts of muddled thinking, and a line of argumentation that’s so hole-ridden it gives me a headache.
Also he has answered you already: He argued that displaying the original Blue Rigi as opposed to a facsimile doesn’t contribute one iota to the education of any child. You either didn’t pay attention, or are trying to wear him out by keep on asking something he already answered.
Maybe. But I still don’t know if that’s because art doesn’t contribute or because originals are the same as facsimiles.
Anyway, can you help me understand what you consider the holes/muddle?
Muddled thinking is when your line of argumentation “painting contributes to museum, museum contributes to education, education contributes to productivity, productivity contributes to charity” implies there’s some single metric each of these increase, which can be traced from one to the other simply, step by step.
An original painting may contribute to museum’s “quality”, but it needn’t contribute to the educational quality of the museum, so you can’t transfer that sort of contribution down that next step.
An art museum contributes to education, but it needn’t contribute to education in such a manner that it becomes the sort of “productivity” that saves lives. Art is about aesthetics, which contribute to quality of life, but not the preservation of such. Art contributes, but it contributes differently—and you were told that already.
Education may contribute to productivity, but depending what you’re educated to value, it may increase or decrease the amounts of charity provided. For example, if you’re taught to value the presence of original paintings, you’ll probably give money to keep original paintings in your nation, not to save lives.
Wanting an original painting, as opposed to a copy, isn’t about educating, it’s about satisfying a fetish. A national fetish in this case, much the way that Greece was obsessing with Olympic Games and museums to house the unreturned Parthenon marbles, while in the meantime its economy was going down the crapper.
In that way I could easily argue that the original is of less utility than a facsimile, exactly because it encourages such unproductive fetishes, while being aesthetically identical.
Upvoted, but disagreed with:
It seems to me that scarcity and authenticity can both play into aesthetics, but besides those two contextual variables that’s spot on.
I don’t think the preference for original paintings is just a fetish. Accurate color reproduction is hard [1], and in many cases, it’s possible to get close enough to the original to see the brushstrokes and texture. I don’t think we’re at the tech yet for really excellent reproductions, but please let me know if I’m missing something.
Originals vs. reproductions may not be worth the cost, but that’s a different question.
[1] The colors in a painting may change with time, but reproductions add another layer of inaccuracy.
I don’t know how good color reproduction can be if a major effort is made. I do know that if I go to the museum shop after an exhibition, I’m always struck by how far off the colors are compared to the paintings.
Texture reproduction is actually an easier problem than color reproduction, and is pretty much solved at less than a $5000 cost. Color is hard partially because people want the painting to look the same under all lighting conditions; under just one, we can solve the problem pretty well, but under all, we nearly need to use the same materials as were originally used. Needless to say, the cost of reproductions scales with the quality, and can become quite high.
I wonder if enough people would go to a museum of high quality reproductions to make it worthwhile.