Reading this and your article on using dead children as currencies reminds me of an event a few years ago which might have helped stop me from becoming another religious nutcase.
I did not know anything about rationality or utilitarian ethics at the time, and I was involved in a youth group at church that was going to be making aid kits for Ethiopia. One of the items that was requested was some kind of clothing, so I picked it up from a second hand store and put the kit together. Later when we were talking about the kits, I was told that we were only supposed to bring new items. when I asked why, the person in charge said something about respecting the feelings of the people who were receiving the gifts, and wanting them to feel like they had been given something special, instead of a discarded item. Everyone else in the group seemed to accept this easily, but I asked how many more people we could have helped with bargain items. This time, they pretty much ignored what I had just said.
I think this was the point when it finally hit me that good intentions and appearing kind are horrible indicators that you are really making the world better. So anyway, I probably would never have tried to find out about websites like this without my experiences dealing with religion. Too bad we cannot all just be taught utilitarian ethics and rationality by our parents and school instead of discovering them the hard way.
Excuse my noob question, but isn’t your subtle anti-religion generalizing implication somehow exactly against the pro-rational attitude this website is spreading?
Also, when it comes to utilitarian ethics and rationality or anything, isn’t “discovering the hard way” more fruit-bearing than having to learn in schools?
Discovering the hard way generally leads to deeper knowledge, but it’s still extremely important to learn about, eg, the germ theory of disease in school. You may not end up knowing as much as its original discoverers about bacteria and their behavior, but you can still spread a lot fewer disease.
Also, when it comes to utilitarian ethics and rationality or anything, isn’t “discovering the hard way” more fruit-bearing than having to learn in schools?
In addition to what drethelin said, there’s also the problem that discovering it the hard way is hard. Most people fail. That way bears no fruit at all.
Don’t be freaked out by my handle/username: I like to blend the best of rationality with the best of feeling/emotion, which I understand is what every avatar has done and does to get what I understand to be wisdom, although their adherents no so much so. This post reminds me of the (wrongly!) hated Republican, T.J. O’Rourke, from his book, Parliament of Whores, where he described having spoken with people who lived in what he called, “A Sewer In the Sky,” and asked one of them who was saying things like, “the landlords, they treat us like a dog when we ask for services,” to just imagine, what if she and her fellow tenants could own the property for no more rent than they were presently paying and then THE TENANTS could decide/control what happened to them there and would no longer be subject to any other authorities except the law, i.e., when and how repairs were made etc., and she looked at him, looked at the building and said something to the effect of “I ain’t goin’ for none of that!” This is most people in our world, I have found repeatedly over years of trying to help the “less fortunate!” Another for instance is that TV shows are blaring how there are no jobs, and people are living paycheck to paycheck, etc. and when I approach them and tell them that I have a trademarked system that can help people overcome such “handicaps,” and that I have plenty of references to help people get jobs, even ex-convicts that won’t hold their records against them, they block me from being able to post on their blogs, like the redoubtable, Bill Moyers and Company of PBS that has such a reputation for trust, so they say! From what I can tell from most of the workers that I have to deal with daily and they are many in all spheres from Walgreen’s to my healthcare providers, the vast majority of workers are incompetent and have rotten attitudes! If they were doing such a great job, why weren’t they retained when the rest of the people were? Employers, though not always fair supposedly are not stupid either! Everybody wants the best, but most don’t want to give it to get it!
Another example is a friend of almost 20 years whom I’ve recently had to separate myself from because I was becoming a nasty, snarling, extraordinarily angry person when faced with what I understand to be his delusional thinking which has only gotten worse recently. One of our typical conversations was that he told me that everyone he talks to, most of whom I call “Soup kitchen denizens” agree with him that above and beyond the nutritional labeling on our food, they have a “right” to know what’s in their food and in a democracy, the majority rules, which latter is true; however, he neglected to understand that America is NOT a democracy but a republic, the latter of which I understand is a society in which the minority opinion is also supposed to be considered in decision making. Further, many advance guard doctors say that one can easily and simply navigate our present food labeling for the most part by not eating anything that has more than five ingredients listed on its label or any ingredients that one doesn’t know exactly what they are; this in moderation is relatively healthful. Sounds sensible and balanced to me!
I told my friend in answer to this that Americans are pretty much the only ones who think they have a right to know what’s in their food and most people in other parts of the world KNOW they have no such right unless they grow the food themselves. I also suggested that he could do so since he is going to be so damned persnickety, which of course he doesn’t have a clue how to do, e.g., what seed would be best, how to rotate same, crops, top soil, soil nutrients, etc. and he has no income whatsoever and therefore can’t buy ANY food (!) eats at soup kitchens three times a day or when I fed him, lavishly and repeatedly out of my income, and can’t tell me why he doesn’t have any income nor how he pays his rent! It’s something having to do with the “Will the God!” I even gave this dude a working computer FREE of charge (he has great ideas which could serve a lot of people and even make him a name which would last beyond his death on alternative technologies which he has amassed on said computer, but he absolutely will not listen to reason and be practical about how to go about implementing such ideas, which I tried to tell him in detail even writing them down!) and all he ever did was complain that I wouldn’t listen to most of his bellyaching! Fool, me!
I feel responsible that I am attracting this type of person often, but for the most part, there are quite a lot of such overgrown adolescents and I too was one for a very long time. I tell these people how I overcame that handicap but they’re interested in being professional victims. That’s how they get their attention with the, “Oh, woe is me!” syndrome.
Finally, is there anyone here who would like to see my sell sheets for my healthful, delicious food line, including the two most powerful super-foods I’ve heard of, which I fed to the above-mentioned character for most of last year, again out of loyalty and misguided pity, and which seemed to be the only thing he was satisfied with, asking me for more and more even when we were both livid with each other, as do many others? If so, please contact me. I’ve also started a rationally based church like none I’ve ever heard of before in recorded history (Google: “Free Church of the Divine Marriage” [it’s not what you may think from its name, I’m pretty sure!] to learn more and to contact me from there) as well as many other accomplishments under extreme duress from non-rational people!
Reading this and your article on using dead children as currencies reminds me of an event a few years ago which might have helped stop me from becoming another religious nutcase.
I did not know anything about rationality or utilitarian ethics at the time, and I was involved in a youth group at church that was going to be making aid kits for Ethiopia. One of the items that was requested was some kind of clothing, so I picked it up from a second hand store and put the kit together. Later when we were talking about the kits, I was told that we were only supposed to bring new items. when I asked why, the person in charge said something about respecting the feelings of the people who were receiving the gifts, and wanting them to feel like they had been given something special, instead of a discarded item. Everyone else in the group seemed to accept this easily, but I asked how many more people we could have helped with bargain items. This time, they pretty much ignored what I had just said.
I think this was the point when it finally hit me that good intentions and appearing kind are horrible indicators that you are really making the world better. So anyway, I probably would never have tried to find out about websites like this without my experiences dealing with religion. Too bad we cannot all just be taught utilitarian ethics and rationality by our parents and school instead of discovering them the hard way.
Excuse my noob question, but isn’t your subtle anti-religion generalizing implication somehow exactly against the pro-rational attitude this website is spreading?
Also, when it comes to utilitarian ethics and rationality or anything, isn’t “discovering the hard way” more fruit-bearing than having to learn in schools?
Discovering the hard way generally leads to deeper knowledge, but it’s still extremely important to learn about, eg, the germ theory of disease in school. You may not end up knowing as much as its original discoverers about bacteria and their behavior, but you can still spread a lot fewer disease.
In addition to what drethelin said, there’s also the problem that discovering it the hard way is hard. Most people fail. That way bears no fruit at all.
Don’t be freaked out by my handle/username: I like to blend the best of rationality with the best of feeling/emotion, which I understand is what every avatar has done and does to get what I understand to be wisdom, although their adherents no so much so. This post reminds me of the (wrongly!) hated Republican, T.J. O’Rourke, from his book, Parliament of Whores, where he described having spoken with people who lived in what he called, “A Sewer In the Sky,” and asked one of them who was saying things like, “the landlords, they treat us like a dog when we ask for services,” to just imagine, what if she and her fellow tenants could own the property for no more rent than they were presently paying and then THE TENANTS could decide/control what happened to them there and would no longer be subject to any other authorities except the law, i.e., when and how repairs were made etc., and she looked at him, looked at the building and said something to the effect of “I ain’t goin’ for none of that!” This is most people in our world, I have found repeatedly over years of trying to help the “less fortunate!” Another for instance is that TV shows are blaring how there are no jobs, and people are living paycheck to paycheck, etc. and when I approach them and tell them that I have a trademarked system that can help people overcome such “handicaps,” and that I have plenty of references to help people get jobs, even ex-convicts that won’t hold their records against them, they block me from being able to post on their blogs, like the redoubtable, Bill Moyers and Company of PBS that has such a reputation for trust, so they say! From what I can tell from most of the workers that I have to deal with daily and they are many in all spheres from Walgreen’s to my healthcare providers, the vast majority of workers are incompetent and have rotten attitudes! If they were doing such a great job, why weren’t they retained when the rest of the people were? Employers, though not always fair supposedly are not stupid either! Everybody wants the best, but most don’t want to give it to get it!
Another example is a friend of almost 20 years whom I’ve recently had to separate myself from because I was becoming a nasty, snarling, extraordinarily angry person when faced with what I understand to be his delusional thinking which has only gotten worse recently. One of our typical conversations was that he told me that everyone he talks to, most of whom I call “Soup kitchen denizens” agree with him that above and beyond the nutritional labeling on our food, they have a “right” to know what’s in their food and in a democracy, the majority rules, which latter is true; however, he neglected to understand that America is NOT a democracy but a republic, the latter of which I understand is a society in which the minority opinion is also supposed to be considered in decision making. Further, many advance guard doctors say that one can easily and simply navigate our present food labeling for the most part by not eating anything that has more than five ingredients listed on its label or any ingredients that one doesn’t know exactly what they are; this in moderation is relatively healthful. Sounds sensible and balanced to me!
I told my friend in answer to this that Americans are pretty much the only ones who think they have a right to know what’s in their food and most people in other parts of the world KNOW they have no such right unless they grow the food themselves. I also suggested that he could do so since he is going to be so damned persnickety, which of course he doesn’t have a clue how to do, e.g., what seed would be best, how to rotate same, crops, top soil, soil nutrients, etc. and he has no income whatsoever and therefore can’t buy ANY food (!) eats at soup kitchens three times a day or when I fed him, lavishly and repeatedly out of my income, and can’t tell me why he doesn’t have any income nor how he pays his rent! It’s something having to do with the “Will the God!” I even gave this dude a working computer FREE of charge (he has great ideas which could serve a lot of people and even make him a name which would last beyond his death on alternative technologies which he has amassed on said computer, but he absolutely will not listen to reason and be practical about how to go about implementing such ideas, which I tried to tell him in detail even writing them down!) and all he ever did was complain that I wouldn’t listen to most of his bellyaching! Fool, me!
I feel responsible that I am attracting this type of person often, but for the most part, there are quite a lot of such overgrown adolescents and I too was one for a very long time. I tell these people how I overcame that handicap but they’re interested in being professional victims. That’s how they get their attention with the, “Oh, woe is me!” syndrome.
Finally, is there anyone here who would like to see my sell sheets for my healthful, delicious food line, including the two most powerful super-foods I’ve heard of, which I fed to the above-mentioned character for most of last year, again out of loyalty and misguided pity, and which seemed to be the only thing he was satisfied with, asking me for more and more even when we were both livid with each other, as do many others? If so, please contact me. I’ve also started a rationally based church like none I’ve ever heard of before in recorded history (Google: “Free Church of the Divine Marriage” [it’s not what you may think from its name, I’m pretty sure!] to learn more and to contact me from there) as well as many other accomplishments under extreme duress from non-rational people!
I hope this finds you having a pleasant day!