What would you say is MoR’s discernable direct comment on the original? Would you say that this comment is leveled specifically at JKR’s world? Is this comment the central aim of MoR?
My thesis would be something like ‘the world of JK’s HP is ill-thought out, inconsistent, and bears a message with regards to death with characters & ideals that is morally repugnant’. This is easy to defend as Rowling has been kind enough to specifically state that the overall theme of her books is accepting death, and Eliezer has been kind enough to have Harry explicitly assail this theme.
Is it the central aim? I don’t know. (I think it is, but I could be wrong.) Depends on where MoR goes. If it ends with a world transformed and enriched by use of, say, Elixir of Life and all Dementors destroyed, well, the argument practically makes itself.
That does sound plausible, thanks. My sense is that MoR is written with the aim of demonstrating rationalist principles and cognitive biases. Many (maybe all?) of the chapters are titled so as to indicate the principle or biases they discuss. I see your point about death, but I guess I get the impression that the structure of the work is centered around educating people in a certain philosophy. That said, one of the fair use categories is ‘educational’.
It can do both—it’s not just asserting that ‘death is bad, mmkay?’, but explaining/demonstrating the facts & reasoning which lead to that conclusion so you understand why death is bad.
(Somewhat like how canon sort of tries to justify death: fearing death makes you do bad things and yields a fate worse than death, to state it baldly.)
It can do both—it’s not just asserting that ‘death is bad, mmkay?’, but explaining/demonstrating the facts & reasoning which lead to that conclusion so you understand why death is bad.
I know it’s a pain, but could you point me to a chapter in which the badness of death is argued for? I thought to look in ‘pretending to be wise’, but the badness of death was very much assumed there. There’s a diagnosis of Dumbledore’s view on death as being a reaction to fear, but that’s obviously not a valid argument against his position, or a valid argument in support of the view that death is bad.
Also, what does the topic of death have to do with the stanford prison experiments, the fundamental attribution error, the scientific method, the efficient market hypothesis, delayed gratification, Bayes theorem, Dominance hierarchies, locating the hypothesis, etc.? These chapters, for the most part, just don’t discuss death at all.
ETA:
(Somewhat like how canon sort of tries to justify death: fearing death makes you do bad things and yields a fate worse than death, to state it baldly.)
Hmm, should I be worried that I think this is right? It seems straightforward to me, if there’s any such thing as courage: to be courageous is ultimately to value some good over your own life. If this valuation is rational, than fear of death can make you choose your life over the good thing, and that’s bad. And it can lead to a fate worse than death: namely, your being alive and the good thing not being achieved.
Privileging the hypothesis of a meaningful afterlife rather than Occam’s razor that it doesn’t exist or it is the same as ghosts and photographs. (This is one argument against death being good: the wizarding world is in a vastly epistemically superior position to Muggles as far as evidence for life after death goes, but Harry pokes holes in it anyway.)
The mechanisms by which religion and other sadistic beliefs can spread.
the scientific method...Bayes theorem
Do I really need to explain this one?
delayed gratification
Useful for having the patient to investigate and hold off on conclusions (which lead to confirmation bias & backfire effects—you missed those).
the efficient market hypothesis
That one’s just criticizing canon’s worldbuilding. (I think. Imaginative suggestions about how that could be related are welcome—perhaps an argument from silence that if the afterlife existed the market would be exploiting it somehow?)
Privileging the hypothesis of a meaningful afterlife rather than Occam’s razor that it doesn’t exist or it is the same as ghosts and photographs.
Okay, against an opponent who says that death is good because there is a good afterlife, I can see how this one would work. That’s not an argument that death is bad, of course, or clearly an argument against ‘accepting death’ (whatever JKR meant by that), but it’s progress. The chapter itself doesn’t mention death at all though.
The mechanisms by which religion and other sadistic beliefs can spread.
And your thought is that it’s ‘sadistic beliefs’ that teach that death is not bad? Why does explaining these mechanisms show that death is bad? I’m afraid this seems very indirect to me.
the scientific method...Bayes theorem
Do I really need to explain this one?
Yes, that one especially, if you have the time and inclination. I recognize that I’m imposing on you here.
Useful for having the patient to investigate and hold off on conclusions (which lead to confirmation bias & backfire effects—you missed those).
The question was, ‘how does this relate to the thesis that death is bad’? I mean, if we think death is bad, then in some sense we could take any good epistemic principle as relating to that thesis, insofar as good epistemic principles relate to true beliefs. Is this as direct as we can get?
The chapter itself doesn’t mention death at all though....I’m afraid this seems very indirect to me.
Education frequently is indirect. If you want direct statements, you wouldn’t be reading MoR, you’d be… well, here, reading LW articles and stuff. Not everything is directly relevant, of course; for example, we could view Harry negotiating with the Sorting Hat as isomorphic to negotiating with an Omega in various precommitment scenarios devised for discussing the advanced decision theories like UDT/TDT. Is this directly relevant to arguing against theism and deathism and pro-agism? Not that I can think of.
The question was, ‘how does this relate to the thesis that death is bad’? I mean, if we think death is bad, then in some sense we could take any good epistemic principle as relating to that thesis, insofar as good epistemic principles relate to true beliefs. Is this as direct as we can get?
Is that such a bad thing? If good epistemic principles don’t lead to true beliefs, then that would make MoR more propaganda than anything...
My thesis would be something like ‘the world of JK’s HP is ill-thought out, inconsistent, and bears a message with regards to death with characters & ideals that is morally repugnant’. This is easy to defend as Rowling has been kind enough to specifically state that the overall theme of her books is accepting death, and Eliezer has been kind enough to have Harry explicitly assail this theme.
Is it the central aim? I don’t know. (I think it is, but I could be wrong.) Depends on where MoR goes. If it ends with a world transformed and enriched by use of, say, Elixir of Life and all Dementors destroyed, well, the argument practically makes itself.
That does sound plausible, thanks. My sense is that MoR is written with the aim of demonstrating rationalist principles and cognitive biases. Many (maybe all?) of the chapters are titled so as to indicate the principle or biases they discuss. I see your point about death, but I guess I get the impression that the structure of the work is centered around educating people in a certain philosophy. That said, one of the fair use categories is ‘educational’.
It can do both—it’s not just asserting that ‘death is bad, mmkay?’, but explaining/demonstrating the facts & reasoning which lead to that conclusion so you understand why death is bad.
(Somewhat like how canon sort of tries to justify death: fearing death makes you do bad things and yields a fate worse than death, to state it baldly.)
I know it’s a pain, but could you point me to a chapter in which the badness of death is argued for? I thought to look in ‘pretending to be wise’, but the badness of death was very much assumed there. There’s a diagnosis of Dumbledore’s view on death as being a reaction to fear, but that’s obviously not a valid argument against his position, or a valid argument in support of the view that death is bad.
Also, what does the topic of death have to do with the stanford prison experiments, the fundamental attribution error, the scientific method, the efficient market hypothesis, delayed gratification, Bayes theorem, Dominance hierarchies, locating the hypothesis, etc.? These chapters, for the most part, just don’t discuss death at all.
ETA:
Hmm, should I be worried that I think this is right? It seems straightforward to me, if there’s any such thing as courage: to be courageous is ultimately to value some good over your own life. If this valuation is rational, than fear of death can make you choose your life over the good thing, and that’s bad. And it can lead to a fate worse than death: namely, your being alive and the good thing not being achieved.
I don’t think you’re trying very hard here.
Privileging the hypothesis of a meaningful afterlife rather than Occam’s razor that it doesn’t exist or it is the same as ghosts and photographs. (This is one argument against death being good: the wizarding world is in a vastly epistemically superior position to Muggles as far as evidence for life after death goes, but Harry pokes holes in it anyway.)
The mechanisms by which religion and other sadistic beliefs can spread.
Do I really need to explain this one?
Useful for having the patient to investigate and hold off on conclusions (which lead to confirmation bias & backfire effects—you missed those).
That one’s just criticizing canon’s worldbuilding. (I think. Imaginative suggestions about how that could be related are welcome—perhaps an argument from silence that if the afterlife existed the market would be exploiting it somehow?)
Okay, against an opponent who says that death is good because there is a good afterlife, I can see how this one would work. That’s not an argument that death is bad, of course, or clearly an argument against ‘accepting death’ (whatever JKR meant by that), but it’s progress. The chapter itself doesn’t mention death at all though.
And your thought is that it’s ‘sadistic beliefs’ that teach that death is not bad? Why does explaining these mechanisms show that death is bad? I’m afraid this seems very indirect to me.
Yes, that one especially, if you have the time and inclination. I recognize that I’m imposing on you here.
The question was, ‘how does this relate to the thesis that death is bad’? I mean, if we think death is bad, then in some sense we could take any good epistemic principle as relating to that thesis, insofar as good epistemic principles relate to true beliefs. Is this as direct as we can get?
Education frequently is indirect. If you want direct statements, you wouldn’t be reading MoR, you’d be… well, here, reading LW articles and stuff. Not everything is directly relevant, of course; for example, we could view Harry negotiating with the Sorting Hat as isomorphic to negotiating with an Omega in various precommitment scenarios devised for discussing the advanced decision theories like UDT/TDT. Is this directly relevant to arguing against theism and deathism and pro-agism? Not that I can think of.
Is that such a bad thing? If good epistemic principles don’t lead to true beliefs, then that would make MoR more propaganda than anything...
Fair enough. Thanks for taking the time.