This is one argument I find particularly irksome...
All laws are constructed by some intelligence
Natural laws are laws
Therefore, natural laws are constructed by some intelligence.
The annoying part is that it is deductively valid if the definition of law is actually the same in both premises. The person making this argument thinks their argument is watertight because of its structure, and will likely not listen to any suggestion that natural laws are not a component of the laws described in the first premise. I can’t understand how anyone can fail to see the obvious problem with the argument, whereas the people who tend to make this type of argument fail to see why I am not persuaded by their supposedly “sound logic”.
The person making this argument thinks their argument is watertight because of its structure, and will likely not listen to any suggestion that natural laws are not a component of the laws described in the first premise.
If people think the structure is watertight and that the is argument valid because of that, maybe pointing out the structural flaw in clear terms would get through to them. Specifically, this one’s called a fallacy of four terms, though it’s in disguise; the word law is used to mean human-designed law in the major premise and any kind of law in the minor premise. The fact that the word also occurs in the phrase natural laws adds to the fun, too.
If going into even deeper detail might help, linguistics has a name for this sort of phenomenon: autohyponymy. It’s when a word has a kind of “default general sense” in addition to one or more specific meanings, which occasionally leads to mix-ups. In this case, we have the hypernonym law (=all kinds of laws) and its hyponym law (=piece of human legislation). Another set of examples of the concept of autohyponymy would be the hyperonym dog (=dog of either gender) and its hyponyms dog (=male dog) and bitch (=female dog).
Do you find stating it like that rather than saying “fallacy of equivocation” is more effective in getting your objection across? Edit: Because my experience is that pointing out the fallacy (by whatever name) is seldom effective.
I’ve no idea, really; I have little experience trying to explain fallacies to anyone as part of addressing their points. If by “stating it like that” you mean the second paragraph, it was an attempt to cover more bases in case simply naming the fallacy didn’t work.
I guess it depends on the audience—if we’re explaining this to the archetypal Man Taken Off The Street, the simplest thing would be to just point out the differences in what law (in this case) is used to mean and forget any and all mentions of theory, fallacies and categorical syllogisms. I proposed giving a name to the error and adding detail because of this part of the OP:
The annoying part is that it is deductively valid if the definition of law is actually the same in both premises. The person making this argument thinks their argument is watertight because of its structure, and will likely not listen to any suggestion that natural laws are not a component of the laws described in the first premise.
My idea was that if someone thinks to cite structural soundness as support for their argument, it might imply they’re sufficiently well-versed in the field that name-dropping the fallacy actually has a chance of working.
You are quite free to do so, unless you pick the definition of law which is exclusively legal, which is the abuse of language that this argument depends on. If you choose a definition of law under which natural laws or mathematical laws can be counted, then the first premise is indeed false (in a materialist framework anyway).
When you change the definition of law to the legal one, the second premise becomes nonsense.
Regardless of which you pick, any reasoned inference which respects the language involved will generally lead to one premise being true and the other false. Essentially, a materialist can arbitrarily decide which is the true premise and which is the false premise (provided a particular definition has not been made clear beforehand).
I don’t know if there is a common definition of law which could make both premises false.
Besides, I didn’t mention this because it was a good argument. I mentioned it because it is a shockingly bad argument that I have seen people take seriously.
Sorry I was unclear… I meant my comment literally. I’ve never heard anyone making this argument, and I’m curious as to what happens if, in response, one says “Not all laws are constructed by some intelligence.” That is, how do the people making this argument respond?
Well, the only time I responded to one such argument, I rejected the second rather than the first premise. Your way might have been easier. I don’t think it would have changed the response though.
He wrote the “socrates is man” syllogism right beside it and challenged me to find an example of someone who is immortal (kind of ignoring the fact that it would only prove a premise in that argument false, and not change the logical validity of that particular argument).
You know, maybe the initial argument isn’t the worst I’ve ever seen. Now that I think about it, the response is probably the worst argument I’ve ever seen.
Was this on an anonymous internet forum by any chance? My subjective priors for it being a troll or small child just went way up (probably more than they should have to be honest).
I got the impression that Dave was asking what is the response that you get if you simply say “I reject the premise that all laws are constructed by some intelligence?”. Was that not the case?
This is one argument I find particularly irksome...
The annoying part is that it is deductively valid if the definition of law is actually the same in both premises. The person making this argument thinks their argument is watertight because of its structure, and will likely not listen to any suggestion that natural laws are not a component of the laws described in the first premise. I can’t understand how anyone can fail to see the obvious problem with the argument, whereas the people who tend to make this type of argument fail to see why I am not persuaded by their supposedly “sound logic”.
If people think the structure is watertight and that the is argument valid because of that, maybe pointing out the structural flaw in clear terms would get through to them. Specifically, this one’s called a fallacy of four terms, though it’s in disguise; the word law is used to mean human-designed law in the major premise and any kind of law in the minor premise. The fact that the word also occurs in the phrase natural laws adds to the fun, too.
If going into even deeper detail might help, linguistics has a name for this sort of phenomenon: autohyponymy. It’s when a word has a kind of “default general sense” in addition to one or more specific meanings, which occasionally leads to mix-ups. In this case, we have the hypernonym law (=all kinds of laws) and its hyponym law (=piece of human legislation). Another set of examples of the concept of autohyponymy would be the hyperonym dog (=dog of either gender) and its hyponyms dog (=male dog) and bitch (=female dog).
Do you find stating it like that rather than saying “fallacy of equivocation” is more effective in getting your objection across? Edit: Because my experience is that pointing out the fallacy (by whatever name) is seldom effective.
Tell that person that feathers are light, what is light cannot be dark, therefore feathers cannot be dark.
This is my favorite response so far.
I’ve no idea, really; I have little experience trying to explain fallacies to anyone as part of addressing their points. If by “stating it like that” you mean the second paragraph, it was an attempt to cover more bases in case simply naming the fallacy didn’t work.
I guess it depends on the audience—if we’re explaining this to the archetypal Man Taken Off The Street, the simplest thing would be to just point out the differences in what law (in this case) is used to mean and forget any and all mentions of theory, fallacies and categorical syllogisms. I proposed giving a name to the error and adding detail because of this part of the OP:
My idea was that if someone thinks to cite structural soundness as support for their argument, it might imply they’re sufficiently well-versed in the field that name-dropping the fallacy actually has a chance of working.
Thanks. I will have to remember that term in future.
What happens if you simply reject the premise that all laws are constructed by some intelligence?
You are quite free to do so, unless you pick the definition of law which is exclusively legal, which is the abuse of language that this argument depends on. If you choose a definition of law under which natural laws or mathematical laws can be counted, then the first premise is indeed false (in a materialist framework anyway).
When you change the definition of law to the legal one, the second premise becomes nonsense.
Regardless of which you pick, any reasoned inference which respects the language involved will generally lead to one premise being true and the other false. Essentially, a materialist can arbitrarily decide which is the true premise and which is the false premise (provided a particular definition has not been made clear beforehand).
I don’t know if there is a common definition of law which could make both premises false.
Besides, I didn’t mention this because it was a good argument. I mentioned it because it is a shockingly bad argument that I have seen people take seriously.
Sorry I was unclear… I meant my comment literally. I’ve never heard anyone making this argument, and I’m curious as to what happens if, in response, one says “Not all laws are constructed by some intelligence.” That is, how do the people making this argument respond?
Edit: yeah, what danfly said.
Well, the only time I responded to one such argument, I rejected the second rather than the first premise. Your way might have been easier. I don’t think it would have changed the response though.
He wrote the “socrates is man” syllogism right beside it and challenged me to find an example of someone who is immortal (kind of ignoring the fact that it would only prove a premise in that argument false, and not change the logical validity of that particular argument).
You know, maybe the initial argument isn’t the worst I’ve ever seen. Now that I think about it, the response is probably the worst argument I’ve ever seen.
Was this on an anonymous internet forum by any chance? My subjective priors for it being a troll or small child just went way up (probably more than they should have to be honest).
I got the impression that Dave was asking what is the response that you get if you simply say “I reject the premise that all laws are constructed by some intelligence?”. Was that not the case?
Damn, I should remember to read comments before replying.
Given the timeframe involved, I think it’s likely we were typing at the same time...