I didn’t respond to your critiques that went into a more political direction because there was already discussion of those aspects there that I wouldn’t have been able to add anything to. There is concern in the movement in general and in individual EA organizations that because EAs are so predominantly computer scientists and philosophers, there is a great risk of incurring known and unknown unknowns. In the first category, more economists for example would be helpful; in the second category it will be important to bring people from a wide variety of demographics into the movement without compromising its core values. As computer scientist I’m pretty median again.
then there are lots of EA missed opportunities lying around waiting for someone to pick them up
Indeed. I’m not sure if the median EA is concerned about this problem yet, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they are. Many EA organizations are certainly very alert to the problem.
Followed to its logical conclusion, this outlook would result in a lot more concern about the West.
This concern manifests in movement-building (GWWC et al.) and capacity-building (80k Hours, CEA, et al.). There is also concern that I share but that may not yet be median EA concern that we should focus more on movement-wide capacity-building, networking, and some sort of quality over quantity approach to allow the movement to be better and more widely informed. (And by “quantity” I don’t mean to denigrate anyone but just I mean more people like myself who already feel welcomed in the movement because everyone speaks their dialect and whose peers are easily convinced too.)
Throughout the time that I’ve been part of the movement, the general sentiment either in the movement as a whole or within my bubble of it has shifted in some ways. One trend that I’ve perceived is that in the earlier days there was more concern over trying vs. really trying while now concern over putting one’s activism on a long-term sustainable basis has become more important. Again, this may be just my filter bubble. This is encouraging as it shows that everyone is very well capable of updating, but it also indicates that as of one or two years ago, we still had a bunch to learn even concerning rather core issues. In a few more years, I’ll probably be more confident that come core questions are not so much in flux anymore that new EAs can overlook or disregard them and thereby dilute what EA currently stands for or shift it into a direction I couldn’t identify with anymore.
Again, I’m not ignoring your points on political topics, I just don’t feel sufficiently well-informed to comment. I’ve been meaning to read David Roodman’s literature review on open borders–related concerns, since I greatly enjoyed some of his other work, but I haven’t yet. David Roodman now works for the Open Philanthropy Project.
Well, there is a question about what EA is. Is EA about being effectively altruistic within your existing value system? Or is it also about improving your value system to more effectively embody your terminal values? Is it about questioning even your terminal values to make sure they are effective and altruistic?
I’ve always perceived EA as whatever stands at the end of any such process, or maybe not the end but some critical threshold when a person realizes that they agree with the core tenets that they value other’s well-being, and that greater well-being or the well-being or more beings weighs heavier than lesser well-being or the well-being of fewer. If they reach such a threshold. If they do, I see all three processes as relevant.
Regardless of whether you are an antirealist, not all value systems are created equal.
Of course.
Their knowledge of history, politics, and object-level social science is low. … I’m doing the same thing: encouraging EAs to reflect on their value systems, and attain a broader geopolitical and historical context to evaluate their interventions.
Yes, thanks! That’s why I was most interested in your comment in this thread, and because all other comments that piqued my interest in similar ways already had comprehensive replies below them when I found the thread.
This needs to be turned into a concrete strategy, and I’m sure CEA is already on that. Identifying exactly what sorts of expertise are in short supply in the movement and networking among the people who possess just this expertise. I’ve made some minimal-effort attempts to pitch EA to economists, but inviting such people to speak at events like EA Global is surely a much more effective way of drawing them and their insights into the movement. That’s not limited to economists of course.
Do you have ideas for people or professions the movement would benefit from and strategies for drawing them in and making them feel welcome?
I just don’t think a lot of EAs have thought their value systems through very thoroughly
Given how many philosophers there are in the movement, this would surprise me. Is it possible that it’s more the result of the ubiquitous disagreement between philosophers?
How do we know we aren’t also deluded by present-day politics?
I’ve wondered about that in the context of moral progress. Sometimes the idea of moral progress is attacked on the grounds that proponents base their claims for moral progress on how history has developed into the direction of our current status quo, which is rather pointless since by that logic any historical trend toward the status quo would then become “moral progress.” However, by my moral standards the status quo is far from perfect.
Analogously I see that the political views EAs are led to hold are so heterogeneous that some have even thought about coining new terms for this political stance (such as “newtilitarianism”), luckily only in jest. (I’m not objecting to the pun but I’m wary of labels like that.) That these political views are at least somewhat uncommon in their combination suggests to me that we’re not falling into that trap, or at least making an uncommonly good effort of avoiding it. Since the trap is pretty much the default starting point for many of us, it’s likely we still have many legs trapped in it despite this “uncommonly good effort.” The metaphor is already getting awkward, so I’ll just add that some sort of contrarian hypercorrection would of course constitute just another trap. (As it happens, there’s another discussion of the importance of diversity in the context of Open Phil in that Vox article.)
No need for you to address any particular political point I’m making. For now, it is sufficient for me to suggest that reigning progressive ideas about politics are flawed and holding EAs back, without you committing to any particular alternative view.
I’m glad to hear that EAs are focusing more on movement-building and collaboration. I think there is a lot of value in eigenaltruism: being altruistic only towards other eigenaltruistic people who “pay it forward” (see Scott Aaronson’s eigenmorality). Civilizations have been built with reciprocal altruism. The problem with most EA thinking is that is one-way, so the altruism is consumed immediately. This post argues that morality evolved as a system of mutual obligation, and that EAs misunderstand this.
Although there is some political heterogeneity in EA, it is overwhelmed by progressives, and the main public recommendations are all progressive causes. Moral progress is a tricky concept: for example, the French Revolution is often considered moral progress, but the pictures paint another story.
On open borders, economic analyses like Roodman’s are just too narrow. They do not take into account all of the externalities, such as crime and changes to cultural institutions. OpenBorders.info addresses many of the objections, sometimes; it does a good job of summarizing some of the anti-open borders arguments, but often fails to refute them, yet this lack of refutation doesn’t translate into them updating their general stance on immigration.
If humans are interchangeable homo economicus then open borders would be a economic and perhaps moral imperative. If indeed human groups are significantly different, such as in crime rates, then it throws a substantial wrench into open borders. If the safety of open borders is in question, then it is a risky experiment.
Some of early indicators are scary, like the Rotherham Scandal. There are reports of similar coverups in other areas, and economic analyses do not capture the harms to these thousands of children. High-crime areas where the police have trouble enforcing rule of law are well documented in Europe: they are called “no-go zones” or “sensitive urban zones” (“no-go zone” is controversial because technically you can go there, but would you want to go to this zone, especially if you were Jewish?). Britain literally has Sharia Patrols harassing gay people and women.
These are just the tip of the iceberg of what is happening with current levels of immigration. Just imagine what happens with fully open borders. I really don’t think its advocates have grappled with this graph, and what it means for Europe under open borders. No matter how generous Europe was, its institutions would never be able to handle the wave of immigrants, and open borders advocates are seriously kidding themselves if they don’t see that Europe would turn into South Africa mixed with Syria, and the US would turn into Brazil. And then who would send aid to Africa?
Rule of law is slowly breaking down in the West, and elite Westerners are sitting in their filter bubbles fiddling while Rome burns. I’m not telling you to accept this scenario as likely; you would need to go do your own research at the object-level. But with even a small risk that this scenario is possible, it’s very significant for future human welfare.
Do you have ideas for people or professions the movement would benefit from and strategies for drawing them in and making them feel welcome?
I’ll think about it. I think some of the sources I’ve cited start answering that question: finding people who are knowledgeable about the giant space of stuff that the media and academia is sweeping under the carpet for political reasons.
Before I delay my reply until I’ve read everything you’ve linked, I’ll rather post a WIP reply.
Thanks for all the data! I hope I’ll have time to look into Open Borders some more in August.
Error theorists would say that the blog post “Effective Altruists are Cute but Wrong” is cute but wrong, but more generally the idea of using PageRank for morality is beautifully elegant (but beautifully elegant things have often turned out imperfect in practice in my experience). I still have to read the rest of the blog post though.
Eigendemocracy reminds me of Cory Doctorow’s whuffie idea.
An interesting case for eigenmorality is when you have distinct groups that cooperate amongst themselves and defect against others. Especially interesting is the case where there are two large, competing groups that are about the same size.
I didn’t respond to your critiques that went into a more political direction because there was already discussion of those aspects there that I wouldn’t have been able to add anything to. There is concern in the movement in general and in individual EA organizations that because EAs are so predominantly computer scientists and philosophers, there is a great risk of incurring known and unknown unknowns. In the first category, more economists for example would be helpful; in the second category it will be important to bring people from a wide variety of demographics into the movement without compromising its core values. As computer scientist I’m pretty median again.
Indeed. I’m not sure if the median EA is concerned about this problem yet, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they are. Many EA organizations are certainly very alert to the problem.
This concern manifests in movement-building (GWWC et al.) and capacity-building (80k Hours, CEA, et al.). There is also concern that I share but that may not yet be median EA concern that we should focus more on movement-wide capacity-building, networking, and some sort of quality over quantity approach to allow the movement to be better and more widely informed. (And by “quantity” I don’t mean to denigrate anyone but just I mean more people like myself who already feel welcomed in the movement because everyone speaks their dialect and whose peers are easily convinced too.)
Throughout the time that I’ve been part of the movement, the general sentiment either in the movement as a whole or within my bubble of it has shifted in some ways. One trend that I’ve perceived is that in the earlier days there was more concern over trying vs. really trying while now concern over putting one’s activism on a long-term sustainable basis has become more important. Again, this may be just my filter bubble. This is encouraging as it shows that everyone is very well capable of updating, but it also indicates that as of one or two years ago, we still had a bunch to learn even concerning rather core issues. In a few more years, I’ll probably be more confident that come core questions are not so much in flux anymore that new EAs can overlook or disregard them and thereby dilute what EA currently stands for or shift it into a direction I couldn’t identify with anymore.
Again, I’m not ignoring your points on political topics, I just don’t feel sufficiently well-informed to comment. I’ve been meaning to read David Roodman’s literature review on open borders–related concerns, since I greatly enjoyed some of his other work, but I haven’t yet. David Roodman now works for the Open Philanthropy Project.
I’ve always perceived EA as whatever stands at the end of any such process, or maybe not the end but some critical threshold when a person realizes that they agree with the core tenets that they value other’s well-being, and that greater well-being or the well-being or more beings weighs heavier than lesser well-being or the well-being of fewer. If they reach such a threshold. If they do, I see all three processes as relevant.
Of course.
Yes, thanks! That’s why I was most interested in your comment in this thread, and because all other comments that piqued my interest in similar ways already had comprehensive replies below them when I found the thread.
This needs to be turned into a concrete strategy, and I’m sure CEA is already on that. Identifying exactly what sorts of expertise are in short supply in the movement and networking among the people who possess just this expertise. I’ve made some minimal-effort attempts to pitch EA to economists, but inviting such people to speak at events like EA Global is surely a much more effective way of drawing them and their insights into the movement. That’s not limited to economists of course.
Do you have ideas for people or professions the movement would benefit from and strategies for drawing them in and making them feel welcome?
Given how many philosophers there are in the movement, this would surprise me. Is it possible that it’s more the result of the ubiquitous disagreement between philosophers?
I’ve wondered about that in the context of moral progress. Sometimes the idea of moral progress is attacked on the grounds that proponents base their claims for moral progress on how history has developed into the direction of our current status quo, which is rather pointless since by that logic any historical trend toward the status quo would then become “moral progress.” However, by my moral standards the status quo is far from perfect.
Analogously I see that the political views EAs are led to hold are so heterogeneous that some have even thought about coining new terms for this political stance (such as “newtilitarianism”), luckily only in jest. (I’m not objecting to the pun but I’m wary of labels like that.) That these political views are at least somewhat uncommon in their combination suggests to me that we’re not falling into that trap, or at least making an uncommonly good effort of avoiding it. Since the trap is pretty much the default starting point for many of us, it’s likely we still have many legs trapped in it despite this “uncommonly good effort.” The metaphor is already getting awkward, so I’ll just add that some sort of contrarian hypercorrection would of course constitute just another trap. (As it happens, there’s another discussion of the importance of diversity in the context of Open Phil in that Vox article.)
No need for you to address any particular political point I’m making. For now, it is sufficient for me to suggest that reigning progressive ideas about politics are flawed and holding EAs back, without you committing to any particular alternative view.
I’m glad to hear that EAs are focusing more on movement-building and collaboration. I think there is a lot of value in eigenaltruism: being altruistic only towards other eigenaltruistic people who “pay it forward” (see Scott Aaronson’s eigenmorality). Civilizations have been built with reciprocal altruism. The problem with most EA thinking is that is one-way, so the altruism is consumed immediately. This post argues that morality evolved as a system of mutual obligation, and that EAs misunderstand this.
Although there is some political heterogeneity in EA, it is overwhelmed by progressives, and the main public recommendations are all progressive causes. Moral progress is a tricky concept: for example, the French Revolution is often considered moral progress, but the pictures paint another story.
On open borders, economic analyses like Roodman’s are just too narrow. They do not take into account all of the externalities, such as crime and changes to cultural institutions. OpenBorders.info addresses many of the objections, sometimes; it does a good job of summarizing some of the anti-open borders arguments, but often fails to refute them, yet this lack of refutation doesn’t translate into them updating their general stance on immigration.
If humans are interchangeable homo economicus then open borders would be a economic and perhaps moral imperative. If indeed human groups are significantly different, such as in crime rates, then it throws a substantial wrench into open borders. If the safety of open borders is in question, then it is a risky experiment.
Some of early indicators are scary, like the Rotherham Scandal. There are reports of similar coverups in other areas, and economic analyses do not capture the harms to these thousands of children. High-crime areas where the police have trouble enforcing rule of law are well documented in Europe: they are called “no-go zones” or “sensitive urban zones” (“no-go zone” is controversial because technically you can go there, but would you want to go to this zone, especially if you were Jewish?). Britain literally has Sharia Patrols harassing gay people and women.
These are just the tip of the iceberg of what is happening with current levels of immigration. Just imagine what happens with fully open borders. I really don’t think its advocates have grappled with this graph, and what it means for Europe under open borders. No matter how generous Europe was, its institutions would never be able to handle the wave of immigrants, and open borders advocates are seriously kidding themselves if they don’t see that Europe would turn into South Africa mixed with Syria, and the US would turn into Brazil. And then who would send aid to Africa?
Rule of law is slowly breaking down in the West, and elite Westerners are sitting in their filter bubbles fiddling while Rome burns. I’m not telling you to accept this scenario as likely; you would need to go do your own research at the object-level. But with even a small risk that this scenario is possible, it’s very significant for future human welfare.
I’ll think about it. I think some of the sources I’ve cited start answering that question: finding people who are knowledgeable about the giant space of stuff that the media and academia is sweeping under the carpet for political reasons.
Before I delay my reply until I’ve read everything you’ve linked, I’ll rather post a WIP reply.
Thanks for all the data! I hope I’ll have time to look into Open Borders some more in August.
Error theorists would say that the blog post “Effective Altruists are Cute but Wrong” is cute but wrong, but more generally the idea of using PageRank for morality is beautifully elegant (but beautifully elegant things have often turned out imperfect in practice in my experience). I still have to read the rest of the blog post though.
Eigendemocracy reminds me of Cory Doctorow’s whuffie idea.
An interesting case for eigenmorality is when you have distinct groups that cooperate amongst themselves and defect against others. Especially interesting is the case where there are two large, competing groups that are about the same size.