Hostility towards Others may be epistemically and ethically corrosive, but the kind of hostility I have discussed is also sometimes necessary. For instance, militaristic jingoism is bad, and I am hostile to it. I am also wary of militaristic jingoists, because they can be dangerous (this is an intentionally extreme example; typical religions are less dangerous).
There is a difference between evangelizing community membership and evangelizing an ideology or set of beliefs.
Usually, a valuable community should only welcome members insofar as it can still maintain its identity and reason for existing. Some communities, such as elite universities, should and do have strict barriers for entry (though the specifics are not always ideal). The culture of lesswrong would probably be erased (that is, retreat to other venues) if lesswrong were mainstreamed and successfully invaded by the rest of the internet.
I generally agree that (most) true beliefs should be shared. Ideologies however are sometimes useful to certain people in certain contexts and not to other people in other contexts. Also, evangelism is costly, and it’s easy to overestimate the value of your ideology to others.
Usually, a valuable community should only welcome members insofar as it can still maintain its identity and reason for existing. Some communities, such as elite universities, should and do have strict barriers for entry (though the specifics are not always ideal). The culture of lesswrong would probably be erased (that is, retreat to other venues) if lesswrong were mainstreamed and successfully invaded by the rest of the internet.
Yes, but none of this require overt hostility to religion (as opposed to just rejection). I think that as long as religious people accept the conversational norms and culture on LW, them bringing in some new perspectives (that are still compatible with overall LW norms) ought to be welcome.
Many traits tend to be correlated for reasons of personality rather than strict logic. So if you select for people on atheism then you may also select for certain ways of thinking, and there can be ways of thinking that are just as rational, but underrepresented among atheists. Selecting against those ways of thinking can make the intellectual community more impoverished.
Take the author of this post. He has openly said that he’s religious; he has also written four posts with 70+ karma, including one that as of this writing has 259 karma and a Curated status, so LW seems to consider him a positive influence. (Not all of his posts have gotten a lot of karma, but then so neither have all of mine.) I don’t think it would have been a good thing if LW’s hostility to religion had driven him away so that he would never have participated.
Yes, but none of this require overt hostility to religion (as opposed to just rejection). I think that as long as religious people accept the conversational norms and culture on LW, them bringing in some new perspectives (that are still compatible with overall LW norms) ought to be welcome.
I think I agree with not going out of one’s way to be rude, I generally think politeness is worthwhile (and have worked to become more polite myself in recent years).[1]
I also welcome people who adhere to any religion sharing insights that they have about the world here on LessWrong.
At the same time, I am ‘hostile’ to religions — or at least, I am ‘hostile’ to any religion that claims to have infallible leaders who receive the truth directly from God(s), or that have texts about history and science and ethics that are unalterable, where adherents to the religion are not allowed to disagree with them.
I am ‘hostile’ in the sense that if (prior to me working on LessWrong) a group of devout Hindus were becoming moderators of LessWrong (and were intending to follow their ethical inside views in shaping the culture of the site) I would’ve taken active action to prevent them having that power (e.g. publicly written arguments against this decision, moved to collect signatures against this decision, etc). I also think that if I were hypothetically freely given the opportunity to lower the hard power that religion has in some ecosystem I cared about, such as removing a Catholic priest from having control over an existential risk grant-making institution, I would be willing to go out of my way to do so, and think that this was good.
Perhaps a better term is to say that I ‘oppose’ religions with (IMO) inherently corrupt epistemologies, and do not want them to have power over me or the things that I care about.
Apart from that, there are many interesting individuals who adhere to religions who have valuable insight into how the world works, and I’m grateful to them when they share such insights openly, especially here on LessWrong.
I want to mention that I don’t wish to entirely police other people’s hostility. I was not raised in a religious household, but I’ve met many who were and who were greatly hurt due to the religious practices and culture of their family and local community and I do not begrudge them their instinctive hostility to it when it appears in their environment.
You have pointed out some important tradeoffs. Many of my closest friends and intellectual influences outside of lesswrong are religious, and often have interesting perspectives and ideas (though I can’t speak to whether this is because of their religions, caused by a common latent variable, or something else). However, I do not think that the purpose of lesswrong is served by engaging with religious ideology here, and I think that avoiding this is probably worth the cost of losing some valuable perspectives.
As you’ve said, @Jeffrey Heninger does participate in the lesswrong community, at its current level of hostility towards religion. I have read some of his other posts in the past and found them enjoyable and valuable, though I think I am roughly indifferent to this one being published. Why does this suggest to you that the community needs to be less hostile to religion, instead of more or roughly the same amount? Presumably if it were less hostile towards religion, there would be more than the current level of religious discussion—do you think that would be better on the margin? I would also expect an influx of religious people below Jeffrey’s level, not above it.
I’m open to starting a dialogue if you want to discuss this further.
However, I do not think that the purpose of lesswrong is served by engaging with religious ideology here,
I didn’t say we should engage with it! I was still speaking within the context of barbs at religion at the Solstice. I agree we should continue to reject (epistemically unsound versions of) religion, just not also be needlessly hostile to it in contexts where it could be avoided with some small tweaks and without compromising on any principles.
Why does this suggest to you that the community needs to be less hostile to religion, instead of more or roughly the same amount?
Usually if a group signals hostility to X and some X-people are thick-skinned enough to participate anyway, there’ll be a much greater number of X-people who are less thick-skinned and decide to stay out. Even if the X-people could make good contributions, as they empirically can.
And if their contributions are bad, they’ll just be downvoted on their own (lack of) merits, the same as any other bad post.
Hostility towards Others may be epistemically and ethically corrosive, but the kind of hostility I have discussed is also sometimes necessary. For instance, militaristic jingoism is bad, and I am hostile to it. I am also wary of militaristic jingoists, because they can be dangerous (this is an intentionally extreme example; typical religions are less dangerous).
There is a difference between evangelizing community membership and evangelizing an ideology or set of beliefs.
Usually, a valuable community should only welcome members insofar as it can still maintain its identity and reason for existing. Some communities, such as elite universities, should and do have strict barriers for entry (though the specifics are not always ideal). The culture of lesswrong would probably be erased (that is, retreat to other venues) if lesswrong were mainstreamed and successfully invaded by the rest of the internet.
I generally agree that (most) true beliefs should be shared. Ideologies however are sometimes useful to certain people in certain contexts and not to other people in other contexts. Also, evangelism is costly, and it’s easy to overestimate the value of your ideology to others.
Yes, but none of this require overt hostility to religion (as opposed to just rejection). I think that as long as religious people accept the conversational norms and culture on LW, them bringing in some new perspectives (that are still compatible with overall LW norms) ought to be welcome.
Many traits tend to be correlated for reasons of personality rather than strict logic. So if you select for people on atheism then you may also select for certain ways of thinking, and there can be ways of thinking that are just as rational, but underrepresented among atheists. Selecting against those ways of thinking can make the intellectual community more impoverished.
Take the author of this post. He has openly said that he’s religious; he has also written four posts with 70+ karma, including one that as of this writing has 259 karma and a Curated status, so LW seems to consider him a positive influence. (Not all of his posts have gotten a lot of karma, but then so neither have all of mine.) I don’t think it would have been a good thing if LW’s hostility to religion had driven him away so that he would never have participated.
I think I agree with not going out of one’s way to be rude, I generally think politeness is worthwhile (and have worked to become more polite myself in recent years).[1]
I also welcome people who adhere to any religion sharing insights that they have about the world here on LessWrong.
At the same time, I am ‘hostile’ to religions — or at least, I am ‘hostile’ to any religion that claims to have infallible leaders who receive the truth directly from God(s), or that have texts about history and science and ethics that are unalterable, where adherents to the religion are not allowed to disagree with them.
I am ‘hostile’ in the sense that if (prior to me working on LessWrong) a group of devout Hindus were becoming moderators of LessWrong (and were intending to follow their ethical inside views in shaping the culture of the site) I would’ve taken active action to prevent them having that power (e.g. publicly written arguments against this decision, moved to collect signatures against this decision, etc). I also think that if I were hypothetically freely given the opportunity to lower the hard power that religion has in some ecosystem I cared about, such as removing a Catholic priest from having control over an existential risk grant-making institution, I would be willing to go out of my way to do so, and think that this was good.
Perhaps a better term is to say that I ‘oppose’ religions with (IMO) inherently corrupt epistemologies, and do not want them to have power over me or the things that I care about.
Apart from that, there are many interesting individuals who adhere to religions who have valuable insight into how the world works, and I’m grateful to them when they share such insights openly, especially here on LessWrong.
I want to mention that I don’t wish to entirely police other people’s hostility. I was not raised in a religious household, but I’ve met many who were and who were greatly hurt due to the religious practices and culture of their family and local community and I do not begrudge them their instinctive hostility to it when it appears in their environment.
You have pointed out some important tradeoffs. Many of my closest friends and intellectual influences outside of lesswrong are religious, and often have interesting perspectives and ideas (though I can’t speak to whether this is because of their religions, caused by a common latent variable, or something else). However, I do not think that the purpose of lesswrong is served by engaging with religious ideology here, and I think that avoiding this is probably worth the cost of losing some valuable perspectives.
As you’ve said, @Jeffrey Heninger does participate in the lesswrong community, at its current level of hostility towards religion. I have read some of his other posts in the past and found them enjoyable and valuable, though I think I am roughly indifferent to this one being published. Why does this suggest to you that the community needs to be less hostile to religion, instead of more or roughly the same amount? Presumably if it were less hostile towards religion, there would be more than the current level of religious discussion—do you think that would be better on the margin? I would also expect an influx of religious people below Jeffrey’s level, not above it.
I’m open to starting a dialogue if you want to discuss this further.
I didn’t say we should engage with it! I was still speaking within the context of barbs at religion at the Solstice. I agree we should continue to reject (epistemically unsound versions of) religion, just not also be needlessly hostile to it in contexts where it could be avoided with some small tweaks and without compromising on any principles.
Usually if a group signals hostility to X and some X-people are thick-skinned enough to participate anyway, there’ll be a much greater number of X-people who are less thick-skinned and decide to stay out. Even if the X-people could make good contributions, as they empirically can.
And if their contributions are bad, they’ll just be downvoted on their own (lack of) merits, the same as any other bad post.