Most scholars of the field regard the Holodomor famine as unintentional on the part of the Soviet government.
When the government takes away food from the entire country, by searching the farms and confiscating every grain… it takes some chutzpah to call the resulting famine “unintentional”.
There is evidence that members of the Soviet administration tried to reduce the impact of the famine.
Some people working in Soviet administration were not monsters. Of course. There were good people among the Nazis, too. Doesn’t make the regimes less evil.
Purposeful deaths of Marxist regimes might be around 10 million.
If you agree to reframe this as “even the greatest apologists of Marxist regimes, after excluding all deniable deaths, couldn’t reduce the number of victims below 10 millions”, okay.
(But to me it feels like having a debate that Nazis only killed 3 million Jews, because according to some historians, people who died of X, Y, and Z don’t really count. Yeah, maybe. So what?)
I was just pointing out that 100 million killed by Communism is a dubious conclusion, arrived by large overestimates made in ignorance. Such estimates, are now rejected in the academic, but the 100 million figure is still used.
‘So what?’ needs no answer. I am not justifying anyone, or defending Marxist regimes.
The other option was to stop collecting food and industrialize with Bukharin’s idea of relying on the investment of rich peasants, but since the willingness of rich peasants to invest was extremely limited, and since they would hoard food in order to raise its price causing food shortages in the cities, this attempt at industrialization would have taken more than a decade to succeed, if at all.
Unfortunately, Adolf Hitler would not have to wait long for a massive invasion that would have destroyed the entire Soviet Union, and the Nazi access to the war resources of Eastern Europe would have prevented the anti-fascist coalition from destroying the Axis powers by landing alone. The purpose of the German occupation of the Soviet Union was to carry out the Master Plan for the East, to kill the vast majority of the population through starvation and massacres and to occupy these areas with German settlers, a plan that was expected to cause the greatest suffering and death in the history of mankind, surpassing the Jewish genocide.
The USSR did sign a mutual assistance pact with Czechoslovakia to guarantee its security, but unfortunately, because of the Polish boycott and the lack of enthusiasm against Germany in Romania, the USSR was unable to send its army units to Czechoslovakia, even though they mobilized their troops during the Sudeten Crisis.
Poland was already nearly collapsed by the time the Soviets started attacking it, and I suspect that the Soviets might only have been able to buy half a month by not attacking Poland, which likely wouldn’t have affected anything, but the Soviets would have lost the buffer zone of marshes and forests that had stymied the German offensive, even though they hadn’t been effective in Operation Barbarossa
If the Soviets had decided to fight Poland and Germany at the same time (the Poles would not have fought alongside the Soviets due to the Soviet-Polish War and subsequent anti-Soviet sentiment in Poland, as well as the fact that the Soviet Union’s objectives included the capture of western Belorussia and western Ukraine), they would have lost a year of preparation, the effect of which would have depended on whether or not this prevented Operation Yellow from being successful.Unfortunately, the Soviets and the French didn’t trust each other, and it’s unlikely that they would have reduced their own chances of surviving a particular offensive for the sake of the other.
Except that Czechoslovakia was supposed to also receive help from France and Britain. The USSR’s attempt to help unilaterally would likely be thwarted by Poland and Romania. And France and Britain themselves signed the Munich pact...
The Soviet administration reduced the amount of grain to be exported in the first half of 1933 from Ukraine by 50% from the amount exported in the first half of 1932. Moreover, 300000 tonnes of grains were allocated to Ukraine to combat the famine. As the situation got worse grain acquisitions were decreased.
When the government takes away food from the entire country, by searching the farms and confiscating every grain… it takes some chutzpah to call the resulting famine “unintentional”.
Some people working in Soviet administration were not monsters. Of course. There were good people among the Nazis, too. Doesn’t make the regimes less evil.
If you agree to reframe this as “even the greatest apologists of Marxist regimes, after excluding all deniable deaths, couldn’t reduce the number of victims below 10 millions”, okay.
(But to me it feels like having a debate that Nazis only killed 3 million Jews, because according to some historians, people who died of X, Y, and Z don’t really count. Yeah, maybe. So what?)
I was just pointing out that 100 million killed by Communism is a dubious conclusion, arrived by large overestimates made in ignorance. Such estimates, are now rejected in the academic, but the 100 million figure is still used.
‘So what?’ needs no answer. I am not justifying anyone, or defending Marxist regimes.
The other option was to stop collecting food and industrialize with Bukharin’s idea of relying on the investment of rich peasants, but since the willingness of rich peasants to invest was extremely limited, and since they would hoard food in order to raise its price causing food shortages in the cities, this attempt at industrialization would have taken more than a decade to succeed, if at all.
Unfortunately, Adolf Hitler would not have to wait long for a massive invasion that would have destroyed the entire Soviet Union, and the Nazi access to the war resources of Eastern Europe would have prevented the anti-fascist coalition from destroying the Axis powers by landing alone. The purpose of the German occupation of the Soviet Union was to carry out the Master Plan for the East, to kill the vast majority of the population through starvation and massacres and to occupy these areas with German settlers, a plan that was expected to cause the greatest suffering and death in the history of mankind, surpassing the Jewish genocide.
Maybe yet another option would be not to make a deal with Hitler about dividing Poland? That would slow him down.
(Even more strategic: offer Czechoslovakia military help against Hitler.)
The USSR did sign a mutual assistance pact with Czechoslovakia to guarantee its security, but unfortunately, because of the Polish boycott and the lack of enthusiasm against Germany in Romania, the USSR was unable to send its army units to Czechoslovakia, even though they mobilized their troops during the Sudeten Crisis.
Poland was already nearly collapsed by the time the Soviets started attacking it, and I suspect that the Soviets might only have been able to buy half a month by not attacking Poland, which likely wouldn’t have affected anything, but the Soviets would have lost the buffer zone of marshes and forests that had stymied the German offensive, even though they hadn’t been effective in Operation Barbarossa
If the Soviets had decided to fight Poland and Germany at the same time (the Poles would not have fought alongside the Soviets due to the Soviet-Polish War and subsequent anti-Soviet sentiment in Poland, as well as the fact that the Soviet Union’s objectives included the capture of western Belorussia and western Ukraine), they would have lost a year of preparation, the effect of which would have depended on whether or not this prevented Operation Yellow from being successful.Unfortunately, the Soviets and the French didn’t trust each other, and it’s unlikely that they would have reduced their own chances of surviving a particular offensive for the sake of the other.
Except that Czechoslovakia was supposed to also receive help from France and Britain. The USSR’s attempt to help unilaterally would likely be thwarted by Poland and Romania. And France and Britain themselves signed the Munich pact...
Oh, I did not realize this!
The Soviet administration reduced the amount of grain to be exported in the first half of 1933 from Ukraine by 50% from the amount exported in the first half of 1932. Moreover, 300000 tonnes of grains were allocated to Ukraine to combat the famine. As the situation got worse grain acquisitions were decreased.