I don’t think this is a true (or healthy) approach. Consider helping a total stranger who you can be fairly certain off you will never see again. E.g. an old lady having trouble loading her groceries in a city you’re visiting as a tourist. (To keep it simple.) By your rational (long-term account balance between you and the lady) one should never help her! This seems like a pretty depressing approach to life.
Secondly: what about situations where there is a potential for a long-term friendship, but you don’t know yet? I often make good friends just by helping them out in a pretty intense way right off the bat. (E.g. someone new moves to my town and I help them find a place to live, happened many times.)
No, I think a “flip the roles” system works better to judge these types of deals: “If I were an old lady in that situation, what would I expect?” “If I was new in town, how would I feel if someone were to help me out? What would it mean for me in the long term?”
Also keep in mind that it’s frighteningly easy to pick out friends who have a “long term balance” system in their heads and I think it reflects badly on them. Don’t be that guy.
I think it’s important that zigdon only talked about things he would ask of other people in his comment, and you only talked about things you would do for other people in yours. I think that’s the source of the difference. In particular, you’re talking about going out of your way for other people who did not necessarily ask you to, which is a pretty different kettle of worms from making and accepting requests. He’s not describing what he’s willing to do for his friends; he’s describing how big a request he’s comfortable making of his friends. Choices about which requests to accept and when to be altruistic without prompting (which is what your examples sound like) use different heuristics.
(I’m comfortable speaking for zigdon a little bit because I know him fairly well, but I’ll nudge him to fill those in himself if he cares to.)
Good point. It took me some time to rethink the relevant strategy.
OK, so a workable strategy might actually be a slight variation on the proposed system. Let’s head back for a second: why do we sometimes feel uncomfortable requesting something?
I was thinking about this and I believe it might come down to our dread for getting a “no”. In a sense, when people respond positively, there seems to be no problem with the appropriateness: it was appropriate to ask*. It is only when you get a reluctant “maybe...” or a “no” that things get really uncomfortable.
This changes the problem into a matter of being able to predict the outcome of the request. In other words, being able to predict the answers that people are going to give. If you can be fairly certain you’ll get a yes, it is most likely appropriate to ask. This skill will invariably require empathy and (yes!) a “simulation of an external mental state” (aka “flip the roles”).
*: Mind you , you’ll also have to mix in moral considerations, because some people are easy to take advantage of this way. (When people are “unable to say no”.) Luckily that is a pretty rare situation.
I think you’re right about the expectation of a “yes” or a “no” leading to comfort/discomfort making a request. If we’re certain of a “yes,” there’s no reason to fear asking; if we’re certain of a “no,” there’s no point. So once again it’s the gray area in the middle that we need to address. A perfect mental model of the other person will of course remove any ambiguity, but really that puts us back where we started: in the absence of that model, looking for heuristics.
Another reason we worry about making requests is that even if the request is reasonable, we might have been imposing too often, and the sum of the requests could become unreasonable. Requests also expose us somewhat; to say “I need something, will you help?” is to make yourself vulnerable to whomever you’re asking. The more confident we are we can trust that person, the easier it is to make the request. That’s another source of ambiguity. I think there’s also an idea in our culture that we shouldn’t be “needy,” which pushes the apparent line of “unreasonableness” to cover some requests which would be healthy or even necessary to make. And there’s a more specific cultural pressure not to display emotion or to scoff at emotional display—especially if you’re male. Finally, sometimes making a request really does have the potential for consequences: the canonical example is that asking out a friend might damage the friendship. Asking the huge angry-looking drunk guy to get out of your way might earn you a fat lip.
That’s just a brainstorm of answers to your question, “why do we sometimes feel uncomfortable requesting something?” I haven’t thought much about potential solutions or workarounds for them yet.
I don’t think people being “unable to say no” is as uncommon as you think. I have friends of whom I say that I “don’t trust their yeses,” i.e. I’m not confident that if they say yes to a request it will be because they actually mean it.
The most common situation I can think of where this comes up is when the question takes the form “Do you mind X?” or “Is it okay if Y?” The phrasing of the question clearly “wants” a positive answer, which applies a little bit of social pressure to give one. For people who aren’t good at asserting their boundaries or their needs, it’s difficult to overcome that pressure. I am pretty good at thinking about and asserting boundaries, and when someone asks me a question like that, I have to catch myself so as not to instinctively say “yes” or “I don’t mind” before I’ve actually consciously considered whether I do mind.
It’s sometimes possible to predict when this might be a problem. When I see someone expressing discomfort after acquiescing to something, or leaving the room after saying they didn’t mind me playing music in it (or whatever), I’ll make a mental note not to trust that person’s yeses. This widens the buffer between “clearly okay” and “clearly not okay,” i.e. the gray area in which I’m uncomfortable asking for something.
That situation is a tough one to remedy. It’s not my responsibility to guess what someone else wants when they aren’t expressing it, or to teach them to assert their boundaries. However, I am able to help create an environment in which it’s safe to say “no.” I can show respect and appreciation when someone else makes their needs clear, as well as make mine clear without placing responsibility on other people to meet them. Of course, that’s how all of this started—my desire to make my own needs clear!
It bears noting that one of the people I’ve been discussing this with off-site thinks I bring way too much concern for other peoples’ opinions into my choices about whether to make requests or assert needs. He might be right, but if he is, analyzing the reasons for it should only bring me closer to a rational threshold.
I’m starting to be tempted to write a post just about this question, since it’s generated so much discussion. But I’d like to have something closer to an answer to it first.
I think relsqui got the difference. I will often not follow these guidelines when deciding when to offer help, or accept requests, just when to make them.
I don’t think this is a true (or healthy) approach. Consider helping a total stranger who you can be fairly certain off you will never see again. E.g. an old lady having trouble loading her groceries in a city you’re visiting as a tourist. (To keep it simple.) By your rational (long-term account balance between you and the lady) one should never help her! This seems like a pretty depressing approach to life.
Secondly: what about situations where there is a potential for a long-term friendship, but you don’t know yet? I often make good friends just by helping them out in a pretty intense way right off the bat. (E.g. someone new moves to my town and I help them find a place to live, happened many times.)
No, I think a “flip the roles” system works better to judge these types of deals: “If I were an old lady in that situation, what would I expect?” “If I was new in town, how would I feel if someone were to help me out? What would it mean for me in the long term?”
Also keep in mind that it’s frighteningly easy to pick out friends who have a “long term balance” system in their heads and I think it reflects badly on them. Don’t be that guy.
I think it’s important that zigdon only talked about things he would ask of other people in his comment, and you only talked about things you would do for other people in yours. I think that’s the source of the difference. In particular, you’re talking about going out of your way for other people who did not necessarily ask you to, which is a pretty different kettle of worms from making and accepting requests. He’s not describing what he’s willing to do for his friends; he’s describing how big a request he’s comfortable making of his friends. Choices about which requests to accept and when to be altruistic without prompting (which is what your examples sound like) use different heuristics.
(I’m comfortable speaking for zigdon a little bit because I know him fairly well, but I’ll nudge him to fill those in himself if he cares to.)
Good point. It took me some time to rethink the relevant strategy.
OK, so a workable strategy might actually be a slight variation on the proposed system. Let’s head back for a second: why do we sometimes feel uncomfortable requesting something?
I was thinking about this and I believe it might come down to our dread for getting a “no”. In a sense, when people respond positively, there seems to be no problem with the appropriateness: it was appropriate to ask*. It is only when you get a reluctant “maybe...” or a “no” that things get really uncomfortable.
This changes the problem into a matter of being able to predict the outcome of the request. In other words, being able to predict the answers that people are going to give. If you can be fairly certain you’ll get a yes, it is most likely appropriate to ask. This skill will invariably require empathy and (yes!) a “simulation of an external mental state” (aka “flip the roles”).
*: Mind you , you’ll also have to mix in moral considerations, because some people are easy to take advantage of this way. (When people are “unable to say no”.) Luckily that is a pretty rare situation.
I think you’re right about the expectation of a “yes” or a “no” leading to comfort/discomfort making a request. If we’re certain of a “yes,” there’s no reason to fear asking; if we’re certain of a “no,” there’s no point. So once again it’s the gray area in the middle that we need to address. A perfect mental model of the other person will of course remove any ambiguity, but really that puts us back where we started: in the absence of that model, looking for heuristics.
Another reason we worry about making requests is that even if the request is reasonable, we might have been imposing too often, and the sum of the requests could become unreasonable. Requests also expose us somewhat; to say “I need something, will you help?” is to make yourself vulnerable to whomever you’re asking. The more confident we are we can trust that person, the easier it is to make the request. That’s another source of ambiguity. I think there’s also an idea in our culture that we shouldn’t be “needy,” which pushes the apparent line of “unreasonableness” to cover some requests which would be healthy or even necessary to make. And there’s a more specific cultural pressure not to display emotion or to scoff at emotional display—especially if you’re male. Finally, sometimes making a request really does have the potential for consequences: the canonical example is that asking out a friend might damage the friendship. Asking the huge angry-looking drunk guy to get out of your way might earn you a fat lip.
That’s just a brainstorm of answers to your question, “why do we sometimes feel uncomfortable requesting something?” I haven’t thought much about potential solutions or workarounds for them yet.
I don’t think people being “unable to say no” is as uncommon as you think. I have friends of whom I say that I “don’t trust their yeses,” i.e. I’m not confident that if they say yes to a request it will be because they actually mean it.
The most common situation I can think of where this comes up is when the question takes the form “Do you mind X?” or “Is it okay if Y?” The phrasing of the question clearly “wants” a positive answer, which applies a little bit of social pressure to give one. For people who aren’t good at asserting their boundaries or their needs, it’s difficult to overcome that pressure. I am pretty good at thinking about and asserting boundaries, and when someone asks me a question like that, I have to catch myself so as not to instinctively say “yes” or “I don’t mind” before I’ve actually consciously considered whether I do mind.
It’s sometimes possible to predict when this might be a problem. When I see someone expressing discomfort after acquiescing to something, or leaving the room after saying they didn’t mind me playing music in it (or whatever), I’ll make a mental note not to trust that person’s yeses. This widens the buffer between “clearly okay” and “clearly not okay,” i.e. the gray area in which I’m uncomfortable asking for something.
That situation is a tough one to remedy. It’s not my responsibility to guess what someone else wants when they aren’t expressing it, or to teach them to assert their boundaries. However, I am able to help create an environment in which it’s safe to say “no.” I can show respect and appreciation when someone else makes their needs clear, as well as make mine clear without placing responsibility on other people to meet them. Of course, that’s how all of this started—my desire to make my own needs clear!
It bears noting that one of the people I’ve been discussing this with off-site thinks I bring way too much concern for other peoples’ opinions into my choices about whether to make requests or assert needs. He might be right, but if he is, analyzing the reasons for it should only bring me closer to a rational threshold.
I’m starting to be tempted to write a post just about this question, since it’s generated so much discussion. But I’d like to have something closer to an answer to it first.
I think relsqui got the difference. I will often not follow these guidelines when deciding when to offer help, or accept requests, just when to make them.
I’m curious; do you have any idea of your heuristics for deciding when to offer help or accept requests?