Honestly I think even the wand thing is way overblown.
In story, there was only a few minute or so between the making of the unbreakable vow (which did require Harry to have his wand) and Harry using it to kill the Death Eaters. Voldemort makes the “You have 1 minute to tell me your secrets or you die” offer immediately after the vow, after all.
Voldemort could have reasoned that he wanted to kill Harry as quickly as possible. Forcing him to drop his wand would have taken time. It also would have shown weakness in front of the Death Eaters. And Voldemort probably couldn’t imagine anything Harry could have done. He’s way too young for any really dangerous magic, despite his skill. Voldemort doesn’t know about nano-wires and all that stuff. It’s probably unimaginable for him that so little magic could have such a big effect.
Let’s not forget that forcing Harry to drop his wand first is not a proposition without any risk either. Voldemort wanted secrets Harry had. If he had demanded that Harry drop his wand, and Harry had refused, he would have been forced to kill him without learning any of his secrets. It’s very likely that Voldemort considered this a significant risk.
And let’s not forget that Voldemort is far from perfect. People keep saying “He always plays at one lever higher”. But the source of that statement was Voldemort himself! He’s obviously quite full of himself, but he’s definitely not without flaws. He makes quite a lot of mistakes throughout the story. He nearly died in Azkaban due to his own stupidity (casting a kill curse at an innocent in full view of a vital ally whom you know is absolutely against that in every way).
Voldemort could have reasoned that he wanted to kill Harry as quickly as possible. Forcing him to drop his wand would have taken time.
This is silly. He’d taken the time to do exactly that before. And now, if he’s going to give him a full minute just to think...
The whole thing falls to the “plausible excuse” vs “what you’d expect to happen” problem, which Harry explains in Answers and Riddles:
the laws governing what constitutes a good explanation don’t talk about plausible excuses you hear afterward. They talk about the probabilities we assign in advance. That’s why science makes people do advance predictions, instead of trusting explanations people come up with afterward. And I wouldn’t have predicted in advance for you to follow Snape and show up like that. Even if I’d known in advance that you could put a trace on Snape’s wand, I wouldn’t have expected you to do it and follow him just then.
If you only knew up to chapter 108 or 110 or so, and someone told you that Voldemort is going to take every precaution to contain Harry’s threat that he can think of, running a search of the sort that would generate such ideas as “put up elaborate wards, including ones against timelooping”, “keep him naked”, “have 36 Death Eaters point wands at him, some of them with different orders than others”, “murder him very elaborately and thoroughly”, “but first make him take a Vow”, “commit to guarding the place for six hours anyway” etc., would you expect one of those items not to be “disarm him”?
Agreed. Especially if we judge the story by usual storytelling standards. Though that’s harder to do after HPMoR itself has been teaching us the difference between story-logic and what is realistically probable, and mocking stories in general and the original Harry Potter in particular at every turn for that stuff.
I don’t think that hole was even necessary. Voldemort did need to let Harry keep his wand for the Unbreakable Vow. and could have intended to have someone disarm him afterwards. So just have Harry prepare the antimatter bomb while Voldemort is dictacting the Vow, and announce it before he could be disarmed. What do you think?
(Sure, that would probably mean no “final exam” for the readers. Now I hated the idea of holding the story hostage, and refused to even “try to try” for that reason, so that doesn’t bother me. I suspect I’m in the minority about that, though.)
The problem is that there doesn’t seem to be a plausible excuse for the wand thing except “Voldemort was careless”, and carelessness under such conditions simply hasn’t been part of his character at any point until now.
Word of God says that the plot of HPMOR was set in stone since the beginning. If there was some better reason for Harry to face the Final Exam with a wand in his hand, Eliezer would have known about it from the start, and could have seeded all the necessary foreshadowing for it way in advance.
In story, there was only a few minute or so between the making of the unbreakable vow (which did require Harry to have his wand) and Harry using it to kill the Death Eaters. Voldemort makes the “You have 1 minute to tell me your secrets or you die” offer immediately after the vow, after all.
Not so. At T-20 seconds, Harry starts verbally stalling while he keeps working on the transfiguration.
It also would have shown weakness in front of the Death Eaters.
After he’s already given them lengthy and detailed instructions about all the many different kinds of spell they must be ready to cast at this naked 11-year old boy at the first sign of trouble?
And Voldemort probably couldn’t imagine anything Harry could have done. He’s way too young for any really dangerous magic, despite his skill. Voldemort doesn’t know about nano-wires and all that stuff. It’s probably unimaginable for him that so little magic could have such a big effect.
He knows that the Harry is a walking extinction event waiting to happen, and that Harry knows secrets powerful enough to be worth learning (potentially even powerful enough to end him—cf. “power he knows not”). Indeed, these are the two facts motivating his actions immediately prior to his defeat.
If he had demanded that Harry drop his wand, and Harry had refused, he would have been forced to kill him without learning any of his secrets.
Why? Surely at least one of his Death Eaters knows Expelliarmus.
And let’s not forget that Voldemort is far from perfect. People keep saying “He always plays at one lever higher”. But the source of that statement was Voldemort himself!
A fine point. It is amusing how, through the reinforcement from the meme’s spreading, people have forgotten the reliability of this statement.
Honestly I think even the wand thing is way overblown.
In story, there was only a few minute or so between the making of the unbreakable vow (which did require Harry to have his wand) and Harry using it to kill the Death Eaters. Voldemort makes the “You have 1 minute to tell me your secrets or you die” offer immediately after the vow, after all.
Voldemort could have reasoned that he wanted to kill Harry as quickly as possible. Forcing him to drop his wand would have taken time. It also would have shown weakness in front of the Death Eaters. And Voldemort probably couldn’t imagine anything Harry could have done. He’s way too young for any really dangerous magic, despite his skill. Voldemort doesn’t know about nano-wires and all that stuff. It’s probably unimaginable for him that so little magic could have such a big effect.
Let’s not forget that forcing Harry to drop his wand first is not a proposition without any risk either. Voldemort wanted secrets Harry had. If he had demanded that Harry drop his wand, and Harry had refused, he would have been forced to kill him without learning any of his secrets. It’s very likely that Voldemort considered this a significant risk.
And let’s not forget that Voldemort is far from perfect. People keep saying “He always plays at one lever higher”. But the source of that statement was Voldemort himself! He’s obviously quite full of himself, but he’s definitely not without flaws. He makes quite a lot of mistakes throughout the story. He nearly died in Azkaban due to his own stupidity (casting a kill curse at an innocent in full view of a vital ally whom you know is absolutely against that in every way).
This is silly. He’d taken the time to do exactly that before. And now, if he’s going to give him a full minute just to think...
The whole thing falls to the “plausible excuse” vs “what you’d expect to happen” problem, which Harry explains in Answers and Riddles:
If you only knew up to chapter 108 or 110 or so, and someone told you that Voldemort is going to take every precaution to contain Harry’s threat that he can think of, running a search of the sort that would generate such ideas as “put up elaborate wards, including ones against timelooping”, “keep him naked”, “have 36 Death Eaters point wands at him, some of them with different orders than others”, “murder him very elaborately and thoroughly”, “but first make him take a Vow”, “commit to guarding the place for six hours anyway” etc., would you expect one of those items not to be “disarm him”?
Certainly, but if you must leave Harry a way out, better to have a plausible excuse instead of no excuse at all.
Agreed. Especially if we judge the story by usual storytelling standards. Though that’s harder to do after HPMoR itself has been teaching us the difference between story-logic and what is realistically probable, and mocking stories in general and the original Harry Potter in particular at every turn for that stuff.
I don’t think that hole was even necessary. Voldemort did need to let Harry keep his wand for the Unbreakable Vow. and could have intended to have someone disarm him afterwards. So just have Harry prepare the antimatter bomb while Voldemort is dictacting the Vow, and announce it before he could be disarmed. What do you think?
(Sure, that would probably mean no “final exam” for the readers. Now I hated the idea of holding the story hostage, and refused to even “try to try” for that reason, so that doesn’t bother me. I suspect I’m in the minority about that, though.)
Well, ‘hate’ is a strong word, but I certainly wasn’t going to be bullied into leaving a review.
The problem is that there doesn’t seem to be a plausible excuse for the wand thing except “Voldemort was careless”, and carelessness under such conditions simply hasn’t been part of his character at any point until now.
Word of God says that the plot of HPMOR was set in stone since the beginning. If there was some better reason for Harry to face the Final Exam with a wand in his hand, Eliezer would have known about it from the start, and could have seeded all the necessary foreshadowing for it way in advance.
Not so. At T-20 seconds, Harry starts verbally stalling while he keeps working on the transfiguration.
After he’s already given them lengthy and detailed instructions about all the many different kinds of spell they must be ready to cast at this naked 11-year old boy at the first sign of trouble?
He knows that the Harry is a walking extinction event waiting to happen, and that Harry knows secrets powerful enough to be worth learning (potentially even powerful enough to end him—cf. “power he knows not”). Indeed, these are the two facts motivating his actions immediately prior to his defeat.
Why? Surely at least one of his Death Eaters knows Expelliarmus.
A fine point. It is amusing how, through the reinforcement from the meme’s spreading, people have forgotten the reliability of this statement.