Killing people is horrible. It’s why DE are “bad people”, because they kill. You can’t claim DE to be bad people, and yet rejoice at their death.
Yes, killing DE has Harry did it was a required evil—letting Voldemort win would have let to much, much more suffering. But that doesn’t change that killing the DE was sad. They were people, and in their own eyes, they weren’t evil. And some of them, like Malfoy, was a loving father, paying political cost to help his son feel better.
And the children of the Death Eaters are just kids. Draco may initially dreamed about raping and killing people, he doesn’t know better, but he did help Hermione, too. And his pain at losing his father is as real any other child pain at losing his father—something no 11 years old should ever have to go through.
Denying humanity to people, considering they are better dead than alive, that their death isn’t any sad, is exactly what Death Eaters did wrong. Harry, Dumbledore, Hermione, McGonagall know better than the eternal loop of hatred, they know that “an eye for an eye will make the whole world blind”, and that a tragedy never undo another tragedy.
Yes, you can kill Death Eaters when they actually threaten you and you need to do it to prevent Voldemort from ruling the world—but that doesn’t mean killing Death Eaters isn’t sad, or that you should rejoice when a 11 years old kid suddenly loses his loving father.
OK, I agree with the “sad” part (though not the “sadder” part). It was unfortunate that people had to die. I don’t think HP should torment himself for not having thought of saving them.
Sure you can. Life is full of trade offs. When the tradeoff is sufficiently in your favor, you rejoice. Sometimes that involves people dying.
That’s… more than a little sociopathic. You seem to be saying that the only value of people’s lives to you is instrumental: if you benefit from someone’s death overall, then their death is a good thing.
You seem to be saying that the only value of people’s lives to you is instrumental
I think you’re misreading the comment—it only says that a human life does not have infinite value and that worthwhile tradeoffs where part of the cost is someone’s death exist.
I’m not convinced. I agree that worthwhile tradeoffs where part of the cost is someone’s death exist, but the way that’s framed in the comment suggests that people dying is irrelevant to whether one rejoices over a worthwhile tradeoff or not. This contrasts heavily with, say, Harry’s view, which is that a necessary death is still a tragedy.
I guess I misread your tone. The way you put “sometimes that involves people dying” immediately after “you rejoice” made it seem like the former was an afterthought.
Retribution. Vengeance. Justice. Comeuppance. I value that somewhat. Bad guys should get what they’ve got coming. I understand that not everyone approves of such sentiments, and probably a lot of people here. I look at it as a predictable adaptation in line with rule consequentialism. But I also understand that some value it much more viscerally than I do.
I recall Peter Hitchens opening a window into his mind one day. Basically, he didn’t want to live in a universe without Justice built in, which from him I take as bad people not getting get their comeuppance. He wants God to settle the scores. He seems very committed to bad guys getting their just deserts.
I think it’s the tone and the context that does it for me. It seems less “worthwhile tradeoffs where part of the cost is someone’s death exist” and more “I don’t care if people die as long as I get enough out of it”.
if you benefit from X overall, then X is a good thing.
Yes. That’s pretty much the definition of consequentialism. Values can be compared and weighed, and when the weight is greater compared to the alternatives, “then X is a good thing”.
I don’t think that you and kilobug are actually in contradiction. Kilobug is saying that the deaths of the Death Eaters is a negative term in the utility function. You are saying that the total utility of the act that kills them is positive (or greater than the alternatives). Unfortunately, idiomatic English discusses these two very different points in similar language.
In other words: kilobug says that, as you survey the consequences of Harry’s act of transfiguration, when you get to these deaths, you do not rejoice; buybuydandavis says that, considering all of the consequences of Harry’s act of transfiguration, you rejoice. At least, that’s how I understand you two.
Killing people is horrible. It’s why DE are “bad people”, because they kill. You can’t claim DE to be bad people, and yet rejoice at their death.
No that’s not why they are “bad people”, and yes you can. Who is killed and why also matters. Or do you see no difference between murdering innocent people and killing Aurors, and killing the murderers themselves to stop them from going on another spree?
Or do you see no difference between murdering innocent people and killing Aurors, and killing the murderers themselves to stop them from going on another spree?
You’re confusing two things, the direct and indirect consequences. The death of “innocent people” (who is truly “innocent” anyway, who defines what “innocent” is, and aren’t the kids of death eaters “innocent” and yet themselves victims too ?) and the death of murderers are, in themselves, terrible. The direct consequence of killing is something very, very bad in both cases.
The indirect consequences are more complicated. Killing murderers when it’s the only solution you have (ie, you can’t incapacitate them) to prevent them from killing again is acceptable, not because killing murders in itself is good, but because it saves more lives.
But the indirect consequences unfold in many different ways, that you can’t always fully apprehend. That’s why there are deontological rules like “killing innocents is worse than killing murders”. It’s not inherently true, it doesn’t mean the life of a “murder” has no value, it just means that the broad, general consequences for society as a whole if people are allowed to kill “murders” when they feel cornered tend to be less bad than allowing them to kill “innocent” when they feel cornered.
But it’s not even that simple. Was Dumbledore right to kill Narcissa (if he did) to stop the Death Eaters from targeting family of the Order ? Narcissa was “innocent”. And yet, in the specific situation, while the direct consequences of killing her are horrible, the indirect consequences (protecting family of the Order) are positive. But that long-term reasoning doesn’t make the death of Narcissa, and the pain of Draco, any less horrible.
And that’s why Harry was right to kill the Death Eaters, because the alternative would have lead to much more death. But that doesn’t mean the death of the 36 people, including the father of one of his best friends, isn’t a very tragic event.
Killing people is horrible. It’s why DE are “bad people”, because they kill. You can’t claim DE to be bad people, and yet rejoice at their death.
Yes, killing DE has Harry did it was a required evil—letting Voldemort win would have let to much, much more suffering. But that doesn’t change that killing the DE was sad. They were people, and in their own eyes, they weren’t evil. And some of them, like Malfoy, was a loving father, paying political cost to help his son feel better.
And the children of the Death Eaters are just kids. Draco may initially dreamed about raping and killing people, he doesn’t know better, but he did help Hermione, too. And his pain at losing his father is as real any other child pain at losing his father—something no 11 years old should ever have to go through.
Denying humanity to people, considering they are better dead than alive, that their death isn’t any sad, is exactly what Death Eaters did wrong. Harry, Dumbledore, Hermione, McGonagall know better than the eternal loop of hatred, they know that “an eye for an eye will make the whole world blind”, and that a tragedy never undo another tragedy.
Yes, you can kill Death Eaters when they actually threaten you and you need to do it to prevent Voldemort from ruling the world—but that doesn’t mean killing Death Eaters isn’t sad, or that you should rejoice when a 11 years old kid suddenly loses his loving father.
OK, I agree with the “sad” part (though not the “sadder” part). It was unfortunate that people had to die. I don’t think HP should torment himself for not having thought of saving them.
Sure you can. Life is full of trade offs. When the tradeoff is sufficiently in your favor, you rejoice. Sometimes that involves people dying.
Then I won’t expect them to rejoice at their own deaths, but in my eyes, there is plenty to rejoice over.
That’s… more than a little sociopathic. You seem to be saying that the only value of people’s lives to you is instrumental: if you benefit from someone’s death overall, then their death is a good thing.
I think you’re misreading the comment—it only says that a human life does not have infinite value and that worthwhile tradeoffs where part of the cost is someone’s death exist.
I’m not convinced. I agree that worthwhile tradeoffs where part of the cost is someone’s death exist, but the way that’s framed in the comment suggests that people dying is irrelevant to whether one rejoices over a worthwhile tradeoff or not. This contrasts heavily with, say, Harry’s view, which is that a necessary death is still a tragedy.
I don’t see how you got that from what I said. I said “trade off”—that implies relevance.
I guess I misread your tone. The way you put “sometimes that involves people dying” immediately after “you rejoice” made it seem like the former was an afterthought.
Maybe you were psychic about my tone.
Retribution. Vengeance. Justice. Comeuppance. I value that somewhat. Bad guys should get what they’ve got coming. I understand that not everyone approves of such sentiments, and probably a lot of people here. I look at it as a predictable adaptation in line with rule consequentialism. But I also understand that some value it much more viscerally than I do.
I recall Peter Hitchens opening a window into his mind one day. Basically, he didn’t want to live in a universe without Justice built in, which from him I take as bad people not getting get their comeuppance. He wants God to settle the scores. He seems very committed to bad guys getting their just deserts.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ATJ23ftuho
Starts around 13:30. Around 14:30 is another chunk.
In the sense that the cost of people dying is already folded into the evaluation of the tradeoff and it still is worthwhile—yes.
I understand your position, what I don’t agree with is that any other view is necessarily “more than a little sociopathic”.
I think it’s the tone and the context that does it for me. It seems less “worthwhile tradeoffs where part of the cost is someone’s death exist” and more “I don’t care if people die as long as I get enough out of it”.
Well, making psychiatric diagnoses on the basis of short internet comments is a popular and time-honored activity :-)
You’re right, “sociopathic” was perhaps a poor choice of words. “Cheerfully unempathic” would have been a better way of saying what I was thinking.
Yes. That’s pretty much the definition of consequentialism. Values can be compared and weighed, and when the weight is greater compared to the alternatives, “then X is a good thing”.
I don’t think that you and kilobug are actually in contradiction. Kilobug is saying that the deaths of the Death Eaters is a negative term in the utility function. You are saying that the total utility of the act that kills them is positive (or greater than the alternatives). Unfortunately, idiomatic English discusses these two very different points in similar language.
In other words: kilobug says that, as you survey the consequences of Harry’s act of transfiguration, when you get to these deaths, you do not rejoice; buybuydandavis says that, considering all of the consequences of Harry’s act of transfiguration, you rejoice. At least, that’s how I understand you two.
No that’s not why they are “bad people”, and yes you can. Who is killed and why also matters. Or do you see no difference between murdering innocent people and killing Aurors, and killing the murderers themselves to stop them from going on another spree?
You’re confusing two things, the direct and indirect consequences. The death of “innocent people” (who is truly “innocent” anyway, who defines what “innocent” is, and aren’t the kids of death eaters “innocent” and yet themselves victims too ?) and the death of murderers are, in themselves, terrible. The direct consequence of killing is something very, very bad in both cases.
The indirect consequences are more complicated. Killing murderers when it’s the only solution you have (ie, you can’t incapacitate them) to prevent them from killing again is acceptable, not because killing murders in itself is good, but because it saves more lives.
But the indirect consequences unfold in many different ways, that you can’t always fully apprehend. That’s why there are deontological rules like “killing innocents is worse than killing murders”. It’s not inherently true, it doesn’t mean the life of a “murder” has no value, it just means that the broad, general consequences for society as a whole if people are allowed to kill “murders” when they feel cornered tend to be less bad than allowing them to kill “innocent” when they feel cornered.
But it’s not even that simple. Was Dumbledore right to kill Narcissa (if he did) to stop the Death Eaters from targeting family of the Order ? Narcissa was “innocent”. And yet, in the specific situation, while the direct consequences of killing her are horrible, the indirect consequences (protecting family of the Order) are positive. But that long-term reasoning doesn’t make the death of Narcissa, and the pain of Draco, any less horrible.
And that’s why Harry was right to kill the Death Eaters, because the alternative would have lead to much more death. But that doesn’t mean the death of the 36 people, including the father of one of his best friends, isn’t a very tragic event.