That you don’t think it’s interesting or important suggests you probably already grasp the point of this post and are just framing it differently than I would. For some readers what I’m saying here is sort of bind-blowing because they’re walking about thinking that truth is like an objective, hard, real thing that exists totally independent of humans, hence my choice of emphasis. Sounds to me like you may already grasp my fundamental point and are seeing that it all adds back up to normality.
That said, I wrote a post a while ago with several examples of how understanding the “weak” version of the final claim matters.
For some readers what I’m saying here is sort of bind-blowing because they’re walking about thinking that truth is like an objective, hard, real thing that exists totally independent of humans, hence my choice of emphasis.
Another hypothesis here is that some readers misunderstand your point and think you’re saying something different than you intend to say.
If I follow the discussion so far (and I confess I’ve just skimmed it), then the meaning I take from the words “truth doesn’t exist independent of humans” is not a meaning you intend to convey. To convey the meaning I think you intend to convey, I would say something like: “”truth” doesn’t exist independent of humans, in that we can define the word in many ways; but truth itself, for most definitions of the word in common use, does exist independent of humans”.
And I agree with what I think gjm to be saying, that this is trite. It may indeed be that some people find it mind blowing.
But, it seems to me that most commenters on this post took you to be saying the same thing that I took you as saying; roughly, the thing that the words “truth doesn’t exist independent of humans” conveys to me.
So I consider it a decent guess, that if someone thinks the thing you’re saying is deep, it’s not because they think the-thing-I-think-is-trite is deep. It may be they they misunderstood you in the same way that most commenters on this post misunderstood you.
Nothing exists independently. Everything is causally connected. So although I’m making a point about truth here because I think it’s a case where failing to understand this interconnectedness matters, it’s a fully general point.
Perhaps the real problem is I didn’t try to convince folks in this post of this, rather than focusing on a specific consequences that I think is rather important for folks who read Less Wrong.
It’s not clear to me how this was intended as a respose to my comment. Was it “I reject that hypothesis because...” or “no you’re misunderstanding what’s being said” or...?
But it seems to me that the biggest problem with the post is likely one of two things:
You’re not yourself confusing the quotation with the referent, but you write in a way that doesn’t clearly distinguish them. This makes some readers think you’re confusing them. Perhaps it makes other readers think you’re saying something deep.
If this is the problem, then explaining why you’re making the point you’re making might be helpful. But I suggest it would be more helpful to make the point you’re making clearer, and that explicitly distinguishing quotation from referent would help with that.
You are confusing the quotation with the referent. For example, when you say “I’m making a point about truth here”, you think you are indeed making a point about truth; whereas I (and I believe gjm) claim you are making a point about the word “truth”. I read you as saying to gjm “yeah you understand what I’m saying, you just don’t think it’s very interesting, that’s fine, other people do”. Perhaps so, but another possibility I have to consider is that you yourself misunderstand what you’re making a point about, and misunderstand gjm when he tries to explain.
That you don’t think it’s interesting or important suggests you probably already grasp the point of this post and are just framing it differently than I would. For some readers what I’m saying here is sort of bind-blowing because they’re walking about thinking that truth is like an objective, hard, real thing that exists totally independent of humans, hence my choice of emphasis. Sounds to me like you may already grasp my fundamental point and are seeing that it all adds back up to normality.
That said, I wrote a post a while ago with several examples of how understanding the “weak” version of the final claim matters.
Another hypothesis here is that some readers misunderstand your point and think you’re saying something different than you intend to say.
If I follow the discussion so far (and I confess I’ve just skimmed it), then the meaning I take from the words “truth doesn’t exist independent of humans” is not a meaning you intend to convey. To convey the meaning I think you intend to convey, I would say something like: “”truth” doesn’t exist independent of humans, in that we can define the word in many ways; but truth itself, for most definitions of the word in common use, does exist independent of humans”.
And I agree with what I think gjm to be saying, that this is trite. It may indeed be that some people find it mind blowing.
But, it seems to me that most commenters on this post took you to be saying the same thing that I took you as saying; roughly, the thing that the words “truth doesn’t exist independent of humans” conveys to me.
So I consider it a decent guess, that if someone thinks the thing you’re saying is deep, it’s not because they think the-thing-I-think-is-trite is deep. It may be they they misunderstood you in the same way that most commenters on this post misunderstood you.
Nothing exists independently. Everything is causally connected. So although I’m making a point about truth here because I think it’s a case where failing to understand this interconnectedness matters, it’s a fully general point.
Perhaps the real problem is I didn’t try to convince folks in this post of this, rather than focusing on a specific consequences that I think is rather important for folks who read Less Wrong.
It’s not clear to me how this was intended as a respose to my comment. Was it “I reject that hypothesis because...” or “no you’re misunderstanding what’s being said” or...?
But it seems to me that the biggest problem with the post is likely one of two things:
You’re not yourself confusing the quotation with the referent, but you write in a way that doesn’t clearly distinguish them. This makes some readers think you’re confusing them. Perhaps it makes other readers think you’re saying something deep.
If this is the problem, then explaining why you’re making the point you’re making might be helpful. But I suggest it would be more helpful to make the point you’re making clearer, and that explicitly distinguishing quotation from referent would help with that.
You are confusing the quotation with the referent. For example, when you say “I’m making a point about truth here”, you think you are indeed making a point about truth; whereas I (and I believe gjm) claim you are making a point about the word “truth”. I read you as saying to gjm “yeah you understand what I’m saying, you just don’t think it’s very interesting, that’s fine, other people do”. Perhaps so, but another possibility I have to consider is that you yourself misunderstand what you’re making a point about, and misunderstand gjm when he tries to explain.
All I can do is point; you have to look for yourself.
My previous comment reflects the fact that I think there’s a big inferential gap here caused by having not tackled another topic.