When the NYT article came out, some people discussed the hypothesis that perhaps the article was originally going to be favorable, but the editors at NYT got mad when Scott deleted his blog so they forced Cade to turn it into a hit piece. This interview pretty much demonstrates that it was always going to be a hit piece (and, as a corollary, Cade lied to people saying it was going to be positive to get them to do interviews).
So yes this changed my view from “probably acted unethically but maybe it wasn’t his fault” to “definitely acted unethically”.
I think Metz acted unethically here, for other reasons. But there are lots of cases of people doing bad things that are newsworthy, that can’t be covered without journalists lying to interview subjects. If you ban lying to subjects, a swath of important news becomes impossible to cover.
It’s not obvious to me what the right way to handle this is, but I wanted to mark this cost.
The ones that come to my mind are “Person or Organization X is doing illegal, unethical, or otherwise unpopular practices which they’d rather conceal from the public.” Lie that you’re ideologically aligned or that you’ll keep things confidential, use that to gain access. Then perhaps lie to blackmail them to give up a little more information before finally publishing it all. There might be an ethical line drawn somewhere, but if it’s not at “any lying” then I don’t know where it is.
I was actually looking for specific examples, precisely so that we could test our intuitions, rather than just stating our intuitions. Do you happen to have any particular ones in mind?
[Bly] took an undercover assignment for which she agreed to feign insanity to investigate reports of brutality and neglect at the Women’s Lunatic Asylum on Blackwell’s Island. [...]
Once admitted to the asylum, Bly abandoned any pretense at mental illness and began to behave as she would normally. The hospital staff seemed unaware that she was no longer “insane” and instead began to report her ordinary actions as symptoms of her illness. Even her pleas to be released were interpreted as further signs of mental illness. Speaking with her fellow patients, Bly was convinced that some were as “sane” as she was.
Bly experienced the deplorable conditions firsthand. The nurses behaved obnoxiously and abusively, telling the patients to shut up, and beating them if they did not. The food consisted of gruel broth, spoiled beef, bread that was little more than dried dough, and dirty undrinkable water. The dangerous patients were tied together with ropes. The patients were made to sit for much of each day on hard benches with scant protection from the cold. Waste was all around the eating places. Rats crawled all around the hospital. [...]
The bath water was rarely changed, with many patients bathing in the same filthy water. Even when the water was eventually changed, the staff did not scrub or clean out the bath, instead throwing the next patient into a stained, dirty tub. The patients also shared bath towels, with healthy patients forced to dry themselves with a towel previously used by patients with skin inflammations, boils, or open sores.
Interestingly...
While physicians and staff worked to explain how she had deceived so many professionals, Bly’s report prompted a grand jury to launch its own investigation[9] with Bly assisting. The jury’s report resulted in an $850,000 increase in the budget of the Department of Public Charities and Corrections. The grand jury also ensured that future examinations were more thorough such that only the seriously ill were committed to the asylum.
I can’t say I’m happy with failure being rewarded with a higher budget. Still, it may have been true that their budget was insufficient to provide sanitary and humane conditions. Anyway, the report itself seems to have been important and worthwhile.
I agree that this investigation was worthwhile and important.
But is it a case of “lying to interview subjects”? That is what we’re talking about, after all. Did Bly even interview anyone, in the course of her investigation?
Undercover investigative journalism has some interesting ethical conundrums of its own, but it’s not clear what it has to do with interviews, or lying to the subjects thereof…
In 2021, I was following these events and already less fond of Scott Alexander than most people here, and I still came away with the impression that Metz’s main modes were bumbling and pattern-matching. At least that’s the impression I’ve been carrying around until today. I find his answers here clear, thoughtful, and occasionally cutting, although I get the impression he leaves more forceful versions on the table for the sake of geniality. I’m wondering whether I absorbed some of the community’s preconceptions or instinctive judgments about him or journalists in general.
I do get the stubbornness, but I read that mostly as his having been basically proven right (and having put in the work at the time to be so confident).
He comes out pretty unsympathetic and stubborn.
Did any of your views of him change?
When the NYT article came out, some people discussed the hypothesis that perhaps the article was originally going to be favorable, but the editors at NYT got mad when Scott deleted his blog so they forced Cade to turn it into a hit piece. This interview pretty much demonstrates that it was always going to be a hit piece (and, as a corollary, Cade lied to people saying it was going to be positive to get them to do interviews).
So yes this changed my view from “probably acted unethically but maybe it wasn’t his fault” to “definitely acted unethically”.
I think Metz acted unethically here, for other reasons. But there are lots of cases of people doing bad things that are newsworthy, that can’t be covered without journalists lying to interview subjects. If you ban lying to subjects, a swath of important news becomes impossible to cover.
It’s not obvious to me what the right way to handle this is, but I wanted to mark this cost.
What would be some examples of this?
The ones that come to my mind are “Person or Organization X is doing illegal, unethical, or otherwise unpopular practices which they’d rather conceal from the public.” Lie that you’re ideologically aligned or that you’ll keep things confidential, use that to gain access. Then perhaps lie to blackmail them to give up a little more information before finally publishing it all. There might be an ethical line drawn somewhere, but if it’s not at “any lying” then I don’t know where it is.
I was actually looking for specific examples, precisely so that we could test our intuitions, rather than just stating our intuitions. Do you happen to have any particular ones in mind?
Looking at Wiki’s Undercover Journalism article, one that comes to mind is Nellie Bly’s Ten Days in a Mad-House.
Interestingly...
I can’t say I’m happy with failure being rewarded with a higher budget. Still, it may have been true that their budget was insufficient to provide sanitary and humane conditions. Anyway, the report itself seems to have been important and worthwhile.
I agree that this investigation was worthwhile and important.
But is it a case of “lying to interview subjects”? That is what we’re talking about, after all. Did Bly even interview anyone, in the course of her investigation?
Undercover investigative journalism has some interesting ethical conundrums of its own, but it’s not clear what it has to do with interviews, or lying to the subjects thereof…
What do you think Metz did that was unethical here?
Poll option: No, this didn’t change my view of CM or the situation around the his article on Slate Star Codex.
Poll option: Yes, this changed my view of CM or the situation around the his article on Slate Star Codex.
In 2021, I was following these events and already less fond of Scott Alexander than most people here, and I still came away with the impression that Metz’s main modes were bumbling and pattern-matching. At least that’s the impression I’ve been carrying around until today. I find his answers here clear, thoughtful, and occasionally cutting, although I get the impression he leaves more forceful versions on the table for the sake of geniality. I’m wondering whether I absorbed some of the community’s preconceptions or instinctive judgments about him or journalists in general.
I do get the stubbornness, but I read that mostly as his having been basically proven right (and having put in the work at the time to be so confident).