They are unwelcome to make any impact on the site. And at this point they are still going to be unwelcome five or ten years from now. Comments are daily. And deleted daily.
I’d be happy if the log didn’t even reflect the existence of the deleting of the comments.
So, to be clear: you propose to punish the entirety of the Less Wrong commentariat for the transgression of one person? That seems extreme, not to mention unproductive.
To be clear. I’m talking about only the E comments. The rest should be in a log.
And I think of it as protecting LW from a persistent bad actor. Despite multiple attempts to ask for them to join mediation or talk about what the problem is or even do anything other than repost the same text of a comment.
Once again, I need absolutely no convincing of the fact that Eugine’s lifetime ban is well-deserved. I certainly never did nor ever would suggest that any attempt at “rehabilitation” should be made.
My concerns are exclusively about the good of the site and its non-banned users, not about any “rights” of Eugine, or leniency, or charity, etc., toward him (as nothing remotely like that is warranted).
What I am questioning is whether hiding Eugine’s deleted comments is good for me (for instance; and for the rest of the commentariat). I am not at all convinced that it is. This is what I’d like to see a cogent argument for.
That said, it seems like “show deleted comments, but make certain extremely rare exceptions—such as for Eugine” might be the least controversial solution (if not 100% ideal from all perspectives—but perhaps “100% ideal” is an unrealistic goal).
It’s not obvious to me whether access to Eugine’s deleted comments is a net benefit to the LW readership.
Reading something has a cost (in time, attention, etc.) as well as whatever benefits it brings, and a lot of the things we might read are rubbish; so we seek out various sorts of probably-better-than-average writing. Removing something from a given corpus of writing may well be beneficial, if the thing removed is of notably lower quality than the rest of the corpus and isn’t required in order to make sense of the rest of it. (This applies even if the thing, in absolute terms, isn’t so bad.) Or if, in absolute terms, it’s not interesting enough to be worth the trouble of reading it.
It is plausible to me that Eugine’s mod-deleted comments are in fact of notably lower quality than the rest of the mod-deleted comments, if only because they are so damn repetititititititive.
“Quality” here means “whatever it is that one might be looking for in reading through deleted LW comments”. That might be much the same as quality of ordinary comments, if you’re reading the deleted ones for fear of missing something good. (In that case, my guess is that Eugine’s comments are better than average for deleted comments—at least, if there were some mechanism for collapsing the vast numbers of dupes. But I doubt many people will be reading the deletion log on the off chance of finding hidden gems.) It might be amount of information about moderator decisions. (Eugine’s deleted comments are very low in such information, because they all reflect a single decision to delete all his comments.) Etc.
Let’s suppose arguendo that the ability to read Eugine’s deleted comments is on average of benefit. I’d like to note that it wouldn’t follow from that that they should be made accessible, because e.g. the deterrent value of having it be known that if you behave like Eugine then you are liable to be maximally excluded from the LW community might be sufficient to outweigh that benefit. (If someone commits a serious crime and is imprisoned for it, this greatly reduces others’ access to conversation with them, to their ideas, etc. You could call this “punishing the entirety of the rest of the world for the transgression of the one person”, but that seems to me an unhelpful way to look at it.)
To recap this comment and an earlier one of mine, I suggest three reasons why it may be reasonable for Eugine’s comments to be permanently destroyed. (1) To reduce his incentive to make them. (2) To deter future Eugines. (3) Because including them may be of negative net benefit because they’re particularly uninteresting even among deleted comments on LW. On the other side, I guess we have (a) the merits of a policy of never deleting comments permanently, for the sake of transparency, and (b) the possibility that to some people Eugine’s comments might be very interesting or valuable. It’s not obvious to me how (1,2,3) weigh up against (a,b), but it does seem obvious to me that it isn’t obvious that (a,b) massively outweigh (1,2,3). Do you agree?
(I ask the last question because one impression I get from your comments on this is of incredulity, as if you find it baffling that anyone would think it makes sense to delete Eugine’s comments permanently. I’m not sure whether I’m imagining that, nor whether if I’m not the incredulity is real rather than adopted; if it’s real, then I hope to have made it less baffling that some people want Eugine’s comments nuked.)
whether hiding Eugine’s deleted comments is good for me
yeah. I can see how you might want to make that decision for yourself. In which case you can probably try to get in touch with this person off platform.
I give Mods the permission to sometimes make these decisions for the users.
They are unwelcome to make any impact on the site. And at this point they are still going to be unwelcome five or ten years from now. Comments are daily. And deleted daily.
I’d be happy if the log didn’t even reflect the existence of the deleting of the comments.
You’re still not making any connection between those two things.
E was banned. That decision is locked in.
Consequences of being banned include—you don’t get to post here and people don’t get to read your comments. Even in a moderation log.
So, to be clear: you propose to punish the entirety of the Less Wrong commentariat for the transgression of one person? That seems extreme, not to mention unproductive.
To be clear. I’m talking about only the E comments. The rest should be in a log.
And I think of it as protecting LW from a persistent bad actor. Despite multiple attempts to ask for them to join mediation or talk about what the problem is or even do anything other than repost the same text of a comment.
Once again, I need absolutely no convincing of the fact that Eugine’s lifetime ban is well-deserved. I certainly never did nor ever would suggest that any attempt at “rehabilitation” should be made.
My concerns are exclusively about the good of the site and its non-banned users, not about any “rights” of Eugine, or leniency, or charity, etc., toward him (as nothing remotely like that is warranted).
What I am questioning is whether hiding Eugine’s deleted comments is good for me (for instance; and for the rest of the commentariat). I am not at all convinced that it is. This is what I’d like to see a cogent argument for.
That said, it seems like “show deleted comments, but make certain extremely rare exceptions—such as for Eugine” might be the least controversial solution (if not 100% ideal from all perspectives—but perhaps “100% ideal” is an unrealistic goal).
It’s not obvious to me whether access to Eugine’s deleted comments is a net benefit to the LW readership.
Reading something has a cost (in time, attention, etc.) as well as whatever benefits it brings, and a lot of the things we might read are rubbish; so we seek out various sorts of probably-better-than-average writing. Removing something from a given corpus of writing may well be beneficial, if the thing removed is of notably lower quality than the rest of the corpus and isn’t required in order to make sense of the rest of it. (This applies even if the thing, in absolute terms, isn’t so bad.) Or if, in absolute terms, it’s not interesting enough to be worth the trouble of reading it.
It is plausible to me that Eugine’s mod-deleted comments are in fact of notably lower quality than the rest of the mod-deleted comments, if only because they are so damn repetititititititive.
“Quality” here means “whatever it is that one might be looking for in reading through deleted LW comments”. That might be much the same as quality of ordinary comments, if you’re reading the deleted ones for fear of missing something good. (In that case, my guess is that Eugine’s comments are better than average for deleted comments—at least, if there were some mechanism for collapsing the vast numbers of dupes. But I doubt many people will be reading the deletion log on the off chance of finding hidden gems.) It might be amount of information about moderator decisions. (Eugine’s deleted comments are very low in such information, because they all reflect a single decision to delete all his comments.) Etc.
Let’s suppose arguendo that the ability to read Eugine’s deleted comments is on average of benefit. I’d like to note that it wouldn’t follow from that that they should be made accessible, because e.g. the deterrent value of having it be known that if you behave like Eugine then you are liable to be maximally excluded from the LW community might be sufficient to outweigh that benefit. (If someone commits a serious crime and is imprisoned for it, this greatly reduces others’ access to conversation with them, to their ideas, etc. You could call this “punishing the entirety of the rest of the world for the transgression of the one person”, but that seems to me an unhelpful way to look at it.)
To recap this comment and an earlier one of mine, I suggest three reasons why it may be reasonable for Eugine’s comments to be permanently destroyed. (1) To reduce his incentive to make them. (2) To deter future Eugines. (3) Because including them may be of negative net benefit because they’re particularly uninteresting even among deleted comments on LW. On the other side, I guess we have (a) the merits of a policy of never deleting comments permanently, for the sake of transparency, and (b) the possibility that to some people Eugine’s comments might be very interesting or valuable. It’s not obvious to me how (1,2,3) weigh up against (a,b), but it does seem obvious to me that it isn’t obvious that (a,b) massively outweigh (1,2,3). Do you agree?
(I ask the last question because one impression I get from your comments on this is of incredulity, as if you find it baffling that anyone would think it makes sense to delete Eugine’s comments permanently. I’m not sure whether I’m imagining that, nor whether if I’m not the incredulity is real rather than adopted; if it’s real, then I hope to have made it less baffling that some people want Eugine’s comments nuked.)
yeah. I can see how you might want to make that decision for yourself. In which case you can probably try to get in touch with this person off platform.
I give Mods the permission to sometimes make these decisions for the users.
I don’t understand why you keep missing my point, but I have run out of ways to explain it. Perhaps someone else can step in for me.