Looking at this and this, I’d guess that it’s just harder to produce super toxic toxins artificially than it is to produce super sweet sweeteners. IIRC the mass of neotame it takes to taste any sweetness is lower than the mass of VX it takes to kill someone.
You are correct. If one estimates that one requires a milliliter of that 0.5% saccharine solution from that paper cited above to detect the sweetness, that would come around to 50mg of sugar. If neotame is 6000 times more potent, that would mean about 800ng. Even if we switch from VX to the more potent botulinum toxin A, we would need a whole whopping microgram per kilogram orally, so perhaps a 100x more than what we need for neotame. (If we change the route of administration to IV, then botox will easily win, of course.)
Of course, this is highly dependent on the ratio of saliva in the mouth (which will dilute the sweetener) to the weight of the organism (which will affect the toxin dose needed). I don’t think this ratio will change overly much when going to elephants or mice, though.
In a way, this should be unsurprising. Both the taste molecule and the neurotoxin interact with very specific receptor molecules. Only in one case, the animal evolved to cooperate with the molecule (by putting the receptors directly on the tongue) while in the other case the evolutionary pressure was very much not to allow random molecules from the environment access to the synapses.
I used to work in a chemistry research lab. For part of that I made Acetylcholinesterase inhibitors for potential treatment of Parkinson’s Alzhiemer’s. These are neurotoxins. As a general rule I didn’t handle more than 10 lethal doses at once, however on one occasion I inhaled a small amount of the aerosolized powder and started salivating and I pissed my pants a little.
As for tasting things, we made an effort to not let that happen. However as mentioned above, some sweeteners are very potent, a few micrograms being spilt on your hands, followed by washing, could leave many hundred nanograms behind. I could see how someone would notice this if they ate lunch afterwards.
While tasting isn’t common, smelling is. Many new chemicals would be carefully smelt as this often gave a quick indication if something novel had happened. Some chemical reactions can be tracked via smell. While not very precise, it is much faster than running an NMR.
Some questions I absolutely wouldn’t blame you for not answering, but I’m curious about: How old are you? How long ago was this? Have you had any complications yet?
this predicts that if a chemist accidentally creates an extremely deadly chemical they probably basically just drop dead. anyone able to weigh on this
Looking at this and this, I’d guess that it’s just harder to produce super toxic toxins artificially than it is to produce super sweet sweeteners. IIRC the mass of neotame it takes to taste any sweetness is lower than the mass of VX it takes to kill someone.
You are correct. If one estimates that one requires a milliliter of that 0.5% saccharine solution from that paper cited above to detect the sweetness, that would come around to 50mg of sugar. If neotame is 6000 times more potent, that would mean about 800ng. Even if we switch from VX to the more potent botulinum toxin A, we would need a whole whopping microgram per kilogram orally, so perhaps a 100x more than what we need for neotame. (If we change the route of administration to IV, then botox will easily win, of course.)
Of course, this is highly dependent on the ratio of saliva in the mouth (which will dilute the sweetener) to the weight of the organism (which will affect the toxin dose needed). I don’t think this ratio will change overly much when going to elephants or mice, though.
In a way, this should be unsurprising. Both the taste molecule and the neurotoxin interact with very specific receptor molecules. Only in one case, the animal evolved to cooperate with the molecule (by putting the receptors directly on the tongue) while in the other case the evolutionary pressure was very much not to allow random molecules from the environment access to the synapses.
On that note, it looks like people have deliberately engineered artificial sweeteners, but for whatever reason they aren’t in use.
I think people typically use the naturally occurring nondigestible sweeteners anyway, stevia and erythritol mainly
I used to work in a chemistry research lab. For part of that I made Acetylcholinesterase inhibitors for potential treatment of
Parkinson’sAlzhiemer’s. These are neurotoxins. As a general rule I didn’t handle more than 10 lethal doses at once, however on one occasion I inhaled a small amount of the aerosolized powder and started salivating and I pissed my pants a little.As for tasting things, we made an effort to not let that happen. However as mentioned above, some sweeteners are very potent, a few micrograms being spilt on your hands, followed by washing, could leave many hundred nanograms behind. I could see how someone would notice this if they ate lunch afterwards.
While tasting isn’t common, smelling is. Many new chemicals would be carefully smelt as this often gave a quick indication if something novel had happened. Some chemical reactions can be tracked via smell. While not very precise, it is much faster than running an NMR.
Some questions I absolutely wouldn’t blame you for not answering, but I’m curious about: How old are you? How long ago was this? Have you had any complications yet?
I’m thirty-something. This was about 7 years ago. From the inhibitors? Nah. From the lab: probably.
They can’t weigh in, they’re dead!
Most of us aren’t dead. Just busy somewhere else.
Selection Bias Rules (Debatably Literally) Everything Around Us