We agree this is a crucial lever, and we agree that the bar for funding has to be in some way “high”. I’m arguing for a bar that’s differently shaped. The set of “people established enough in AGI alignment that they get 5 [fund a person for 2 years and maybe more depending how things go in low-bandwidth mentorship, no questions asked] tokens” would hopefully include many people who understand that understanding constraints is key and that past research understood some constraints.
build on past agent foundations research
I don’t really agree with this. Why do you say this?
a lot of wasted effort if you asked for out-of-paradigm ideas.
I agree with this in isolation. I think some programs do state something about OOP ideas, and I agree that the statement itself does not come close to solving the problem.
(Also I’m confused about the discourse in this thread (which is fine), because I thought we were discussing “how / how much should grantmakers let the money flow”.)
would hopefully include many people who understand that understanding constraints is key and that past research understood some constraints.
Good point, I’m convinced by this.
build on past agent foundations research
I don’t really agree with this. Why do you say this?
That’s my guess at the level of engagement required to understand something. Maybe just because when I’ve tried to use or modify some research that I thought I understood, I always realise I didn’t understand it deeply enough. I’m probably anchoring too hard on my own experience here, other people often learn faster than me.
(Also I’m confused about the discourse in this thread (which is fine), because I thought we were discussing “how / how much should grantmakers let the money flow”.)
I was thinking “should grantmakers let the money flow to unknown young people who want a chance to prove themselves.”
That’s my guess at the level of engagement required to understand something. Maybe just because when I’ve tried to use or modify some research that I thought I understood, I always realise I didn’t understand it deeply enough. I’m probably anchoring too hard on my own experience here, other people often learn faster than me.
Hm. A couple things:
Existing AF research is rooted in core questions about alignment.
Existing AF research, pound for pound / word for word, and even idea for idea, is much more unnecessary stuff than necessary stuff. (Which is to be expected.)
Existing AF research is among the best sources of compute-traces of trying to figure some of this stuff out (next to perhaps some philosophy and some other math).
Empirically, most people who set out to stuff existing AF fail to get many of the deep lessons.
There’s a key dimension of: how much are you always asking for the context? E.g.: Why did this feel like a mainline question to investigate? If we understood this, what could we then do / understand? If we don’t understand this, are we doomed / how are we doomed? Are there ways around that? What’s the argument, more clearly?
It’s more important whether people are doing that, than whether / how exactly they engage with existing AF research.
If people are doing that, they’ll usually migrate away from playing with / extending existing AF, towards the more core (more difficult) problems.
I was thinking “should grantmakers let the money flow to unknown young people who want a chance to prove themselves.”
Ah ok you’re right that that was the original claim. I mentally autosteelmanned.
We agree this is a crucial lever, and we agree that the bar for funding has to be in some way “high”. I’m arguing for a bar that’s differently shaped. The set of “people established enough in AGI alignment that they get 5 [fund a person for 2 years and maybe more depending how things go in low-bandwidth mentorship, no questions asked] tokens” would hopefully include many people who understand that understanding constraints is key and that past research understood some constraints.
I don’t really agree with this. Why do you say this?
I agree with this in isolation. I think some programs do state something about OOP ideas, and I agree that the statement itself does not come close to solving the problem.
(Also I’m confused about the discourse in this thread (which is fine), because I thought we were discussing “how / how much should grantmakers let the money flow”.)
Good point, I’m convinced by this.
That’s my guess at the level of engagement required to understand something. Maybe just because when I’ve tried to use or modify some research that I thought I understood, I always realise I didn’t understand it deeply enough. I’m probably anchoring too hard on my own experience here, other people often learn faster than me.
I was thinking “should grantmakers let the money flow to unknown young people who want a chance to prove themselves.”
Hm. A couple things:
Existing AF research is rooted in core questions about alignment.
Existing AF research, pound for pound / word for word, and even idea for idea, is much more unnecessary stuff than necessary stuff. (Which is to be expected.)
Existing AF research is among the best sources of compute-traces of trying to figure some of this stuff out (next to perhaps some philosophy and some other math).
Empirically, most people who set out to stuff existing AF fail to get many of the deep lessons.
There’s a key dimension of: how much are you always asking for the context? E.g.: Why did this feel like a mainline question to investigate? If we understood this, what could we then do / understand? If we don’t understand this, are we doomed / how are we doomed? Are there ways around that? What’s the argument, more clearly?
It’s more important whether people are doing that, than whether / how exactly they engage with existing AF research.
If people are doing that, they’ll usually migrate away from playing with / extending existing AF, towards the more core (more difficult) problems.
Ah ok you’re right that that was the original claim. I mentally autosteelmanned.