But I do hold out a little bit of hope in the sense that seasteading can be attempted on nearly any state’s doorstep. As US and Russian positions on the issue of independence of small states and regions in Western Eurasia shows, great powers are great friends of the principle of self-determination when it is limited to the spheres of interests of rival great powers. Perhaps if China feels its economic interest isn’t sufficiently represented by its influence on US policy or vice versa?
There are naturally even more desperate alternatives including alliances with so called rogue states, some of which might in the near future posses nuclear weapons which for now seem to offer at least some minimal source of protection. Now naturally many might object to how one could contemplate to cooperate even for defence with a regime like say Iran, but I think this misses the point. The sovereignty of a chunk of land or sea or a virtual community, does allow things to go horribly wrong like say North Korea, but it also allows things to go potentially horribly right. Yes your cooperation may prolong the existence of X regime you dislike or even despise which has a few dozen million people living horribly, but at the same time it ensures billions of people living in a sort of ok or seemingly ok system have a working demonstration of a great or much better system, this might in itself greatly increase the probability of those states eventually transitioning to such systems.
Utilitarians (let alone others!) who think and have good reasons to think that their X form of government has this potential, need to shut up and calculate.
The excellent new system being required to work with criminals and outcasts merely to prove its own viability means taking up such an ENORMOUS burden of proof… you do realize that, don’t you? What would the prior probability of “We’d all be better off changing our society in line with what those weird guys, who give the NK regime aid and technology in exchange for shelter, have been doing for a couple of years” appear to be for an intelligent mainstream Western person? Sorry, this is basically the least sane bit of armchair speculation that I’ve heard from you period. I mean, the average Bond villain has a more viable AND ethically sound plan.
I do understand the motive, of course. You were looking for a way to make up an ethical dilemma to signal smart contrarianism with. Aren’t we all guilty of that sometimes?
But I do hold out a little bit of hope in the sense that seasteading can be attempted on nearly any state’s doorstep. As US and Russian positions on the issue of independence of small states and regions in Western Eurasia shows, great powers are great friends of the principle of self-determination when it is limited to the spheres of interests of rival great powers. Perhaps if China feels its economic interest isn’t sufficiently represented by its influence on US policy or vice versa?
There are naturally even more desperate alternatives including alliances with so called rogue states, some of which might in the near future posses nuclear weapons which for now seem to offer at least some minimal source of protection. Now naturally many might object to how one could contemplate to cooperate even for defence with a regime like say Iran, but I think this misses the point. The sovereignty of a chunk of land or sea or a virtual community, does allow things to go horribly wrong like say North Korea, but it also allows things to go potentially horribly right. Yes your cooperation may prolong the existence of X regime you dislike or even despise which has a few dozen million people living horribly, but at the same time it ensures billions of people living in a sort of ok or seemingly ok system have a working demonstration of a great or much better system, this might in itself greatly increase the probability of those states eventually transitioning to such systems.
Utilitarians (let alone others!) who think and have good reasons to think that their X form of government has this potential, need to shut up and calculate.
“rouge states”
Should be rogue states.
Thank you pointing that out!
The excellent new system being required to work with criminals and outcasts merely to prove its own viability means taking up such an ENORMOUS burden of proof… you do realize that, don’t you? What would the prior probability of “We’d all be better off changing our society in line with what those weird guys, who give the NK regime aid and technology in exchange for shelter, have been doing for a couple of years” appear to be for an intelligent mainstream Western person? Sorry, this is basically the least sane bit of armchair speculation that I’ve heard from you period. I mean, the average Bond villain has a more viable AND ethically sound plan.
I do understand the motive, of course. You were looking for a way to make up an ethical dilemma to signal smart contrarianism with. Aren’t we all guilty of that sometimes?
The history of the relationship between Israel and South Africa is more complicated than I thought, but that kind of thing isn’t a pure hypothetical.