Ben Jones: A conscious mind is not a single, indivisible entity. It is a slippery thingy arising from the interplay of myriad smaller systems and mechanisms. If you want to use the word ‘emergent’ then knock yourself out. With that in mind, why should there be a definite fact of the matter?
Ben, even without knowing about atoms or brains, you can know this much: Something is happening, and it consists of one thing after another.
Whatever else reality encompasses, it must include this experience sequence or stream of consciousness that you have.
You evidently propose to identify these experiences with states of a physical brain, as do most scientifically educated people. But then, faced with the boundary problems pertaining to physical systems that Eliezer has highlighted, you say, well, there’s no “definite fact of the matter” as to (say) how many streams of consciousness there are in a given physical setup.
This is not an option, except in the sense that ignoring a problem is an option. A exists, definitely; we hypothesize that A is actually B, possibly; we have trouble specifying the exact relationship between B and A; so we conclude that A doesn’t definitely exist after all?
One aspect of progress in physics is the synthesis of incompatible theories in new theoretical frameworks. Quantum mechanics and relativity give rise to quantum field theory, quantum field theory and gravity give rise to string theory. The present situation is a huge opportunity for discovery, once you accept that A definitely exists; but everyone is clinging to their existing models of B at any price. Basic sensory qualities, the flow of time, the unity of the individual consciousness in appearance and reality—all are to be denied so we can imagine that our existing physics is enough.
But there is truly no need to do this. The fundamental validation of the physics we have is that it makes correct quantitative predictions. All that that implies, in turn, is that there are quantities in nature, somewhere and somehow. Do we have so little imagination that we cannot think up an ontology in which all the manifest aspects of consciousness are actually there, and in which the quantitative relations of our physics are also present?
This really will require deep changes, there is no doubt. Once you accept that these problematic qualities of consciousness are real—that they are there, even if their nature is not totally clear—you also have to address the question of how it is that you know they are there. That implies faculties of awareness and a theory of knowledge which is not just a matter of correct quantitative prediction. As with the numbers of physics, this does not mean that we need some new ontology of knowledge instead of Bayes, Kolmogorov, and the other local favorites. The new qualitative ontology would ground the quantitative aspects of epistemology, just as it must ground the quantitative ontology we call physics.
The split-brain research must be among the most important clues to the truth that we have, because it comes close to producing some of these consciousness-counting paradoxes in reality. But to be is to be something, consciousness is actually there, and so the solution is not to consign it to the realm of fuzzy half-realities. The solution is to start with the premise that there is a definite fact of the matter, and sacrifice everything to retain that premise. But I doubt that we have to sacrifice that much, really.
The evidence for consciousness is of roughly the same kind as for mystical experiences, i.e. verbal self-reports. There is no other evidence for either. Assume we’re not conscious; what would you expect to be different? Obviously the part(s) of me that generate verbal reports (or other linguistic correspondence) seem to have access to other parts of my mind so that it seems like I’m a identity inside myself, but so what? What does consciousness itself add to any description of my experience?
Ben Jones: A conscious mind is not a single, indivisible entity. It is a slippery thingy arising from the interplay of myriad smaller systems and mechanisms. If you want to use the word ‘emergent’ then knock yourself out. With that in mind, why should there be a definite fact of the matter?
Ben, even without knowing about atoms or brains, you can know this much: Something is happening, and it consists of one thing after another.
Whatever else reality encompasses, it must include this experience sequence or stream of consciousness that you have.
You evidently propose to identify these experiences with states of a physical brain, as do most scientifically educated people. But then, faced with the boundary problems pertaining to physical systems that Eliezer has highlighted, you say, well, there’s no “definite fact of the matter” as to (say) how many streams of consciousness there are in a given physical setup.
This is not an option, except in the sense that ignoring a problem is an option. A exists, definitely; we hypothesize that A is actually B, possibly; we have trouble specifying the exact relationship between B and A; so we conclude that A doesn’t definitely exist after all?
One aspect of progress in physics is the synthesis of incompatible theories in new theoretical frameworks. Quantum mechanics and relativity give rise to quantum field theory, quantum field theory and gravity give rise to string theory. The present situation is a huge opportunity for discovery, once you accept that A definitely exists; but everyone is clinging to their existing models of B at any price. Basic sensory qualities, the flow of time, the unity of the individual consciousness in appearance and reality—all are to be denied so we can imagine that our existing physics is enough.
But there is truly no need to do this. The fundamental validation of the physics we have is that it makes correct quantitative predictions. All that that implies, in turn, is that there are quantities in nature, somewhere and somehow. Do we have so little imagination that we cannot think up an ontology in which all the manifest aspects of consciousness are actually there, and in which the quantitative relations of our physics are also present?
This really will require deep changes, there is no doubt. Once you accept that these problematic qualities of consciousness are real—that they are there, even if their nature is not totally clear—you also have to address the question of how it is that you know they are there. That implies faculties of awareness and a theory of knowledge which is not just a matter of correct quantitative prediction. As with the numbers of physics, this does not mean that we need some new ontology of knowledge instead of Bayes, Kolmogorov, and the other local favorites. The new qualitative ontology would ground the quantitative aspects of epistemology, just as it must ground the quantitative ontology we call physics.
The split-brain research must be among the most important clues to the truth that we have, because it comes close to producing some of these consciousness-counting paradoxes in reality. But to be is to be something, consciousness is actually there, and so the solution is not to consign it to the realm of fuzzy half-realities. The solution is to start with the premise that there is a definite fact of the matter, and sacrifice everything to retain that premise. But I doubt that we have to sacrifice that much, really.
The evidence for consciousness is of roughly the same kind as for mystical experiences, i.e. verbal self-reports. There is no other evidence for either. Assume we’re not conscious; what would you expect to be different? Obviously the part(s) of me that generate verbal reports (or other linguistic correspondence) seem to have access to other parts of my mind so that it seems like I’m a identity inside myself, but so what? What does consciousness itself add to any description of my experience?