Given that Grindelwald was not given the death penalty, it seems reasonable to think that captured Dark Lords are not executed out of hand, but imprisoned; and where to imprison the many Dark Lords but Azkaban?
What basis do we have to suppose that there have been many dark lords? There have certainly been multiple dark lords, but canon provides us with a grand total of two examples, and the gap between Grindelwald and Voldemort was implied to be atypically short. We don’t know how far back the history of Azkaban goes, and how many Dark Lords have been contemporaneous with it. We only know that the one canonical example of a dark lord who was imprisoned, was not imprisoned there.
What basis do we have to suppose that there have been many dark lords?
That’s my own personal reading of the language scattered over the seven books; obviously, it’s not easy to prove this to someone else who didn’t already pick up on it—I would have to re-read all 7 and take notes where language that could have pointed to Dark Lords being rare as hen’s teeth instead pointed to them being fairly commons (1 or 2 a century, which is 10-20 over the lifespan of Hogwarts).
We don’t know how far back the history of Azkaban goes, and how many Dark Lords have been contemporaneous with it.
Given the powerful magics implied to have been used on it, and the general Golden Age conception in the Potterverse where older=more powerful, again my inference is that Azkaban is hundreds of years old—per above, we could expect >5 Dark Lords contemporaneous.
The only powerful magic in the defense of Azkaban seems to be the fact that time turners can’t be used on its premises, which might be deep old magic, but I’m inclined to suspect otherwise. Aside from that, its defenses seem to mainly boil down to
1) taking away wands
2) anti apparation jinx
3) dementors
4) human guards.
Our impressions may differ based on the fact that I still tend to draw most of my background information from the original canon, which didn’t actually contain the Golden Age element used in MoR. New magic was described as being invented over time, but very little was ever described as being lost, and Voldemort was described as the most dangerous dark wizard of all time, not just the last century, with Grindelwald, his immediate predecessor, a close second. While the two are both referred to as Dark Lords, when they are compared to each other, it’s within the class of dark wizards, and I infer from this that Dark Lord is a prohibitively small class within to draw comparisons.
The only powerful magic in the defense of Azkaban seems to be the fact that time turners can’t be used on its premises, which might be deep old magic, but I’m inclined to suspect otherwise.
That’s Yudkowsky-only, I think. I expect Azkaban to be as well defended as Gringotts in Deathly Hallows—all sorts of intruder spells, monsters (if they can survive), and whatnot.
Our impressions may differ based on the fact that I still tend to draw most of my background information from the original canon, which didn’t actually contain the Golden Age element used in MoR.
I think canon has the Golden Age! The founding of Hogwarts, the heirlooms of the founders, controlling the basilisk, the Deathly Hallows themselves, the Dark spells Voldemort uses, the list goes on. If it’s powerful, it’s probably old. The entire 20th century sees only a few new magical feats: the Philosopher’s Stone (maybe); Inferi; and… some new uses of dragon blood, I suppose.
The part about time turners being unusable on Azkaban premises doesn’t show up anywhere in the original canon, no. There’s nothing in the original books I can think of that suggests that any especially strong magic went into the creation of Azkaban. Its main strengths are that it’s guarded, and that the people who aren’t supposed to get out have their wands taken away.
While plenty of powerful things in canon are old, most of the old knowledge is still available. The Interdict of Merlin is also HPMoR original. Voldemort knew old dark magic because he looked it up, the basilisk was controlled by communicating with it via Parselmouth, and the heirlooms of the founders are presumably powerfully magical, having been made by some of the greatest wizards of the day, but the greater part of their value comes from the fact that they are heirlooms; if you made another sword with all the properties of the Sword of Gryffindor, it wouldn’t be the Sword of Gryffindor. The only founder’s heirloom that actually does anything really remarkable is the Sorting Hat, and while it’s probably a work of magic far beyond ordinary wizards, it doesn’t appear to be treated as an awe inspiring relic of the golden age of wizardry. If Dumbledore hasn’t created anything like it, it’s quite probably because he doesn’t have any incentive to. He already has the Sorting Hat, after all.
Rather than the founders of Hogwarts setting an unreachable standard, Dumbledore is described as the greatest headmaster Hogwarts has ever seen (albeit by a probably biased source,) and Voldemort and Grindelwald are referred to as the most dangerous dark wizards of all time.
The Deathly Hallows have powers which surpass ordinary magical objects in the original canon, but their powers are not that outstanding compared to other, non legendary magical objects, and while they were probably not actually made by Death, the people who did make them never divulged the methods of their creation.
All in all, the wizarding world of the original canon certainly didn’t demonstrate the sort of meteoritic rise in knowledge that the muggle world does, but the general trend seemed to be that while individual wizards might not be getting more competent, knowledge is being added to the community on net, rather than being lost.
I’m not sure. I seem to recall that the language implied that Dumbledore co-created it with Flamel, which would mean 20th century, after all; it’s not clear how long wizards naturally live, speculation based on apparent size of Magical Britain to the side.
But it’s also possible Flamel created in the 1600s, this is how he survived to the 1900s, and the brilliant young Dumbledore hearing of Flamel’s stone, independently reinvented it. Or something.
I’m not sure. I seem to recall that the language implied that Dumbledore co-created it with Flamel, which would mean 20th century,
The wording in book one which you may be thinking of just says that Dumbledore and Flamel did alchemical work together. Flamel’s construction of the philosopher’s stone is not mentioned until much later when Hermione finds the reference and there it just says that Flamel is the only person known to have made one.
I don’t recall any language suggesting that Dumbledore worked on the Stone with Flamel, only that he worked on alchemy with Flamel (reported on his Chocolate Frog card). And I don’t recally anything to suggest that Dumbledore ever had a Stone of his own, only Flamel’s for safe keeping. In MoR, Dumbledore cites Flamel’s expertise, not his own, for his conclusion that Voldemort couldn’t create a Stone. In canon, Dumbledore reports that Flamel has destroyed his own stone, without saying anything about himself.
Well, all that may be true. It has been a very long time since I read Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone. (Although I could have sworn Dumbledore was implied to have been using the elixir, and this was one reason it wasn’t surprising that he he died later on.)
Not that you should just take my word for it, but I reread the books about this fall, and I’m confident that Dumbledore didn’t use the elixir. According the the Wikia (which is more authoritative than I), he died at age 107 (not unusual for a Wizard, although he was killed), and it says nothing about his using the Stone.
What basis do we have to suppose that there have been many dark lords? There have certainly been multiple dark lords, but canon provides us with a grand total of two examples, and the gap between Grindelwald and Voldemort was implied to be atypically short. We don’t know how far back the history of Azkaban goes, and how many Dark Lords have been contemporaneous with it. We only know that the one canonical example of a dark lord who was imprisoned, was not imprisoned there.
That’s my own personal reading of the language scattered over the seven books; obviously, it’s not easy to prove this to someone else who didn’t already pick up on it—I would have to re-read all 7 and take notes where language that could have pointed to Dark Lords being rare as hen’s teeth instead pointed to them being fairly commons (1 or 2 a century, which is 10-20 over the lifespan of Hogwarts).
Given the powerful magics implied to have been used on it, and the general Golden Age conception in the Potterverse where older=more powerful, again my inference is that Azkaban is hundreds of years old—per above, we could expect >5 Dark Lords contemporaneous.
The only powerful magic in the defense of Azkaban seems to be the fact that time turners can’t be used on its premises, which might be deep old magic, but I’m inclined to suspect otherwise. Aside from that, its defenses seem to mainly boil down to
1) taking away wands 2) anti apparation jinx 3) dementors 4) human guards.
Our impressions may differ based on the fact that I still tend to draw most of my background information from the original canon, which didn’t actually contain the Golden Age element used in MoR. New magic was described as being invented over time, but very little was ever described as being lost, and Voldemort was described as the most dangerous dark wizard of all time, not just the last century, with Grindelwald, his immediate predecessor, a close second. While the two are both referred to as Dark Lords, when they are compared to each other, it’s within the class of dark wizards, and I infer from this that Dark Lord is a prohibitively small class within to draw comparisons.
That’s Yudkowsky-only, I think. I expect Azkaban to be as well defended as Gringotts in Deathly Hallows—all sorts of intruder spells, monsters (if they can survive), and whatnot.
I think canon has the Golden Age! The founding of Hogwarts, the heirlooms of the founders, controlling the basilisk, the Deathly Hallows themselves, the Dark spells Voldemort uses, the list goes on. If it’s powerful, it’s probably old. The entire 20th century sees only a few new magical feats: the Philosopher’s Stone (maybe); Inferi; and… some new uses of dragon blood, I suppose.
The part about time turners being unusable on Azkaban premises doesn’t show up anywhere in the original canon, no. There’s nothing in the original books I can think of that suggests that any especially strong magic went into the creation of Azkaban. Its main strengths are that it’s guarded, and that the people who aren’t supposed to get out have their wands taken away.
While plenty of powerful things in canon are old, most of the old knowledge is still available. The Interdict of Merlin is also HPMoR original. Voldemort knew old dark magic because he looked it up, the basilisk was controlled by communicating with it via Parselmouth, and the heirlooms of the founders are presumably powerfully magical, having been made by some of the greatest wizards of the day, but the greater part of their value comes from the fact that they are heirlooms; if you made another sword with all the properties of the Sword of Gryffindor, it wouldn’t be the Sword of Gryffindor. The only founder’s heirloom that actually does anything really remarkable is the Sorting Hat, and while it’s probably a work of magic far beyond ordinary wizards, it doesn’t appear to be treated as an awe inspiring relic of the golden age of wizardry. If Dumbledore hasn’t created anything like it, it’s quite probably because he doesn’t have any incentive to. He already has the Sorting Hat, after all.
Rather than the founders of Hogwarts setting an unreachable standard, Dumbledore is described as the greatest headmaster Hogwarts has ever seen (albeit by a probably biased source,) and Voldemort and Grindelwald are referred to as the most dangerous dark wizards of all time.
The Deathly Hallows have powers which surpass ordinary magical objects in the original canon, but their powers are not that outstanding compared to other, non legendary magical objects, and while they were probably not actually made by Death, the people who did make them never divulged the methods of their creation.
All in all, the wizarding world of the original canon certainly didn’t demonstrate the sort of meteoritic rise in knowledge that the muggle world does, but the general trend seemed to be that while individual wizards might not be getting more competent, knowledge is being added to the community on net, rather than being lost.
Flamel’s stone presumably dates from the 17th Century, since that’s when Flamel himself (a real historical figure) dates from.
I’m not sure. I seem to recall that the language implied that Dumbledore co-created it with Flamel, which would mean 20th century, after all; it’s not clear how long wizards naturally live, speculation based on apparent size of Magical Britain to the side.
But it’s also possible Flamel created in the 1600s, this is how he survived to the 1900s, and the brilliant young Dumbledore hearing of Flamel’s stone, independently reinvented it. Or something.
The wording in book one which you may be thinking of just says that Dumbledore and Flamel did alchemical work together. Flamel’s construction of the philosopher’s stone is not mentioned until much later when Hermione finds the reference and there it just says that Flamel is the only person known to have made one.
I don’t recall any language suggesting that Dumbledore worked on the Stone with Flamel, only that he worked on alchemy with Flamel (reported on his Chocolate Frog card). And I don’t recally anything to suggest that Dumbledore ever had a Stone of his own, only Flamel’s for safe keeping. In MoR, Dumbledore cites Flamel’s expertise, not his own, for his conclusion that Voldemort couldn’t create a Stone. In canon, Dumbledore reports that Flamel has destroyed his own stone, without saying anything about himself.
Well, all that may be true. It has been a very long time since I read Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone. (Although I could have sworn Dumbledore was implied to have been using the elixir, and this was one reason it wasn’t surprising that he he died later on.)
Not that you should just take my word for it, but I reread the books about this fall, and I’m confident that Dumbledore didn’t use the elixir. According the the Wikia (which is more authoritative than I), he died at age 107 (not unusual for a Wizard, although he was killed), and it says nothing about his using the Stone.