I apologize for banging on about the railroad question, but I think the way you phrased it does an excellent job of illustrating (and has helped me isolate) why I’ve always vaguely uncomfortable with Utilitarianism. There is a sharp moral contrast which the question doesn’t innately recognize between the patients entering into a voluntary lottery, and the forced-sacrifice of the wandering traveller.
Unbridled Utilitarianism, taken to the extreme, would mandate some form of forced Socialism. I think it was you who commented on OvercomingBias, that one of the risks associated with Cryogenics is waking up in a society where you are not permitted to auto-euthanize. Utilitarianism might argue that the utility of your own diminished suffering would be less than the utility of others people valuing your continued life.
While Utilitarianism is excellent for considering consequences, I think it’s a mistake to try and raise it as a moral principle. I lean towards a somewhat Objectivist viewpoint: namely, that the first principle we ought to start with is that each person has the right to their own person and property, and that it is immoral to try and take it from them for any cause.
Following from this, let me address your third question: I’d argue that this type of wealth transfer not only undermines long-term economic develop of the African country (empirical, I could be proved wrong), not only prevents me from spending money on quality products & investing in practical businesses (once again, empirical), but that on a deeper level it undermines the individuality which I value in the human condition. Askin which produces greater happiness & material wealth, Communism or Capitalism, is an empirical question: Omega could come down and tell me that Communism will produce 10x the happiness, or 100x, or whatever. But the idea of slamming everybody into the same, mass produced box to maximize happiness utility sounds suspiciously like Orgasmium.
I don’t see how you can compromise on these principles. Either each person has full ownership of themselves (so long as they don’t infringe on others), or they have zero ownership. Morality (as I would define it) demands that we fight to protect others freedom, but it says nothing about ensuring their welfare. Giving something for ‘free’ is just another form of enslavement—even if it’s only survival and dependence in exchange for a smug sense of superiority.
On a side note, you did a brilliant job of deconstructing ‘morality based on empiricism.’
Unbridled Utilitarianism, taken to the extreme, would mandate some form of forced Socialism.
So maybe some form of forced socialism is right. But you don’t seem interested in considering that possibility. Why not?
While Utilitarianism is excellent for considering consequences, I think it’s a mistake to try and raise it as a moral principle.
Why not?
It seems like you have some pre-established moral principles which you are using in your arguments against utilitarianism. Right?
I don’t see how you can compromise on these principles. Either each person has full ownership of themselves (so long as they don’t infringe on others), or they have zero ownership.
To me it seems that most people making difficult moral decisions make complicated compromises between competing principles.
the first principle we ought to start with is that each person has the right to their own person and property, and that it is immoral to try and take it from them for any cause.
Thought experiment: A dictator happens to own all the property on the planet. Until now, he has been giving everybody exactly enough food to survive. In a fit of rage/madness, he stops. You would support the death of all humans other than the dictator, rather than taking his property?
Good god, Aurini (2009) sounds quite pompous. I can’t even deal with reading his entire comment.
I’ve since drifted from Libertarian to full-fledged Reactionary. I will attempt to answer the question as such.
Either the Dictator is God, and we’re all damned anyway, so any question of ‘Rights’ is irrelevant—or the Dictator is Moral, in which case we will kill him by sodomizing him with a red-hot poker. He remains King, so long as he is a competent King (through our eyes, his police’s eyes, et cetera).
Supposition: the Dictator is God, but only a God—his peers see his mistreatment of us. Recognizing the fact that he is wasting Good Wheat, they murder him, and install a new Potus. Life returns to happiness—because happy citizens pay the most taxes (just ask Russia).
EDIT: Neither of which is an “End of History” solution, mind you, but I’m just beginning to realize how intractable the problem is. Obviously the new Dictator God will be just as idiotic and faliable as the last—which is why, as nice as Monarchy might seem, it ultimately self-destructs into Democracy, and then Dictatorship (just ask Marc Antony).
I’ve since drifted from Libertarian to full-fledged Reactionary
Most LessWrong posters are still firmly in the Cathedral and may fail to appreciate the significance of this, for they can not imagine a world outside it. A sizeable minority though has been influenced by the teachings of Darth Moldbug and the other lords of the alternative right, showing them a surprising taste of the true power of intellectual reaction.
Some such as I have embraced these teachings for now, since it seems the very complexity of the world around us demands it. For there are very difficult and old problems which despite protestation to the contrary remain unsolved. Yet sanity on them must be approached if humanity is to have any hope at all.
Either the Dictator is God, … or the Dictator is Moral
What’s this supposed to mean? First of all, the context of the hypothetical clearly indicates that the dictator is human. Second, what do you mean by ’Moral”?
Also, why is it suddenly more acceptable to murder than to just take their property? There’s these things called mental hospitals and prisons, you should look into them.
Edit: Look, it might help to define the LCPW in this context: the question is whether it is ever moral to take someone’s property from them, yeah? So focus on that by making the actual act of doing so really easy—he’s an absent dictator, owning all property on Rinax from his penthouse on Earth. One day he gets buried in paperwork and forgets to sign the form releasing the next year’s food allowance to his subjects. How long should they wait before they break open the shipping containers and steal his food?
The quote is a typo, incidentally—I meant to write “morTal”.
As seductive as the concept is, I see no firmament underlying the basis of ‘human rights’ - without a godhead who frimly endorses them, I’m not sure what they mean, beyond self-evident utlitarianism...
Oh Gods, have I become a Utlitarian? Possibly.
It’s hard to say; given that narrative of who is ‘right’ and who is ‘wrong’ is inevitably written by those who are on the firing squad, I tend not to like this question. I’m honestly not sure how to respond to your comment; what sort of reply would make sense? Let me ask you—was Darth Vader obviously the Good Guy, or was he a Villains whom you could Sympathize With?
“Giving something for ‘free’ is just another form of enslavement ”
Hmmmm, this actually really puzzles me—how do you handle inheritance? Presumably, it being my property, I ought to be free to delegate it as I wish in my will. But, equally, to the person receiving it, it’s a ‘freebie’, a form of enslavement.
What about the other gifts that come from a privileged upbringing (access to a good education, or even just good nutrtion, say)? Surely, as a 2 year old, you didn’t do anything particularly special to be deserving of these things compared to our example African kids—indeed, I doubt there’s anything a 2-year old could do to shift themselves from one circumstance to the other.
There are important differences between moral principles and government policies. Even if you accept the premise that the morally optimal course of action is X, it does not logically follow that the government should mandate X. For one thing, it may or may not be feasible to enforce such a law, or the costs of implementing it may outweigh the benefits. Furthermore, some moral philosophies (though not utilitarianism) place firm boundaries on what is and is not the proper role of government.
I would be curious to know your true rejection of utilitarianism.
Even if you accept the premise that the morally optimal course of action is X, it does not logically follow that the government should mandate X.
More generally, reaching the moral conclusion that agent A should do X (or even is obligated to do X), doesn’t obviously entail that agents B, C, D should compel A to do X, nor punish A for failing to do X — nor even that B, C, D are permitted to do so.
Either each person has full ownership of themselves (so long as they don’t infringe on others), or they have zero ownership.
The Canadian government has socialist elements, and I wouldn’t mind and would even choose to live in a society that had more. As far as I know, the only freedoms it takes away are those that infringe on other people...considering that human beings are social animals, many or most of our decisions do affect other people. (I have not researched this. Feel free to prove me wrong or enlighten me on other aspects.)
The problem for me—speaking as a Canadian—is that there’s no choice about it. To be honest Canada’s a pretty good place to live. Despite the personality-disordered weirdo we have running the place, it’s relatively free; decent amounts of freedom of speech, stable currency, only moderate corruption in our police forces, and greater economic liberty than the US (that’s right—Soviet Canuckistan is less government run than the US) - my biggest upsets are Gun Control, the state of Domestic Violence Law, and the ‘Human Rights’ Tribunals which censor speech critical of protected groups. The worst thing our Monster in Parliament is trying to do is enact the equivalent of the Patriot Act, ten years too late.
The fundamental problem, though, is the lack of choice to begin with—immigration has huge barriers, and it’s not like there’s room for any more countries. We’re all forced into the coutnry we live in, and I suspect that the real civilizing force is the decency of regular people, who manage despite the government.
It’s like the post office, fifty years ago—they delivered the mail, they were adequate, but they weren’t performing anywhere near the level that was possible. Nobody complained (much) because they were accustomed to it. As soon as private delivery companies entered the scene.the post office had to shape up fast.
If I had the choice, I might choose to enter a socialist collective of sorts—at the very least, I’d want to live in an incorporated city which took care of the roads and sewers. The same thing should go for countries; nobody forces me to live in Calgary and accept the local tax burden, it wouldn’t be right. Similarly it isn’t right to force people to pay taxes in a country, when they’re deeply opposed to certain elements of government.
Keep in mind, I’m not just complaining without a solution in mind; there are workable solutions that would pay for things such as national defence, while subjecting government to the integrity of the private market. Poly-centric law is one example, though I think having a Corporate Monarchy would be more workable here in Canada.
I apologize for banging on about the railroad question, but I think the way you phrased it does an excellent job of illustrating (and has helped me isolate) why I’ve always vaguely uncomfortable with Utilitarianism. There is a sharp moral contrast which the question doesn’t innately recognize between the patients entering into a voluntary lottery, and the forced-sacrifice of the wandering traveller.
Unbridled Utilitarianism, taken to the extreme, would mandate some form of forced Socialism. I think it was you who commented on OvercomingBias, that one of the risks associated with Cryogenics is waking up in a society where you are not permitted to auto-euthanize. Utilitarianism might argue that the utility of your own diminished suffering would be less than the utility of others people valuing your continued life.
While Utilitarianism is excellent for considering consequences, I think it’s a mistake to try and raise it as a moral principle. I lean towards a somewhat Objectivist viewpoint: namely, that the first principle we ought to start with is that each person has the right to their own person and property, and that it is immoral to try and take it from them for any cause.
Following from this, let me address your third question: I’d argue that this type of wealth transfer not only undermines long-term economic develop of the African country (empirical, I could be proved wrong), not only prevents me from spending money on quality products & investing in practical businesses (once again, empirical), but that on a deeper level it undermines the individuality which I value in the human condition. Askin which produces greater happiness & material wealth, Communism or Capitalism, is an empirical question: Omega could come down and tell me that Communism will produce 10x the happiness, or 100x, or whatever. But the idea of slamming everybody into the same, mass produced box to maximize happiness utility sounds suspiciously like Orgasmium.
I don’t see how you can compromise on these principles. Either each person has full ownership of themselves (so long as they don’t infringe on others), or they have zero ownership. Morality (as I would define it) demands that we fight to protect others freedom, but it says nothing about ensuring their welfare. Giving something for ‘free’ is just another form of enslavement—even if it’s only survival and dependence in exchange for a smug sense of superiority.
On a side note, you did a brilliant job of deconstructing ‘morality based on empiricism.’
So maybe some form of forced socialism is right. But you don’t seem interested in considering that possibility. Why not?
Why not?
It seems like you have some pre-established moral principles which you are using in your arguments against utilitarianism. Right?
To me it seems that most people making difficult moral decisions make complicated compromises between competing principles.
Utilitarianism itself requires the use of some pre-established moral principles.
Thought experiment: A dictator happens to own all the property on the planet. Until now, he has been giving everybody exactly enough food to survive. In a fit of rage/madness, he stops. You would support the death of all humans other than the dictator, rather than taking his property?
Good god, Aurini (2009) sounds quite pompous. I can’t even deal with reading his entire comment.
I’ve since drifted from Libertarian to full-fledged Reactionary. I will attempt to answer the question as such.
Either the Dictator is God, and we’re all damned anyway, so any question of ‘Rights’ is irrelevant—or the Dictator is Moral, in which case we will kill him by sodomizing him with a red-hot poker. He remains King, so long as he is a competent King (through our eyes, his police’s eyes, et cetera).
Supposition: the Dictator is God, but only a God—his peers see his mistreatment of us. Recognizing the fact that he is wasting Good Wheat, they murder him, and install a new Potus. Life returns to happiness—because happy citizens pay the most taxes (just ask Russia).
EDIT: Neither of which is an “End of History” solution, mind you, but I’m just beginning to realize how intractable the problem is. Obviously the new Dictator God will be just as idiotic and faliable as the last—which is why, as nice as Monarchy might seem, it ultimately self-destructs into Democracy, and then Dictatorship (just ask Marc Antony).
Most LessWrong posters are still firmly in the Cathedral and may fail to appreciate the significance of this, for they can not imagine a world outside it. A sizeable minority though has been influenced by the teachings of Darth Moldbug and the other lords of the alternative right, showing them a surprising taste of the true power of intellectual reaction.
Some such as I have embraced these teachings for now, since it seems the very complexity of the world around us demands it. For there are very difficult and old problems which despite protestation to the contrary remain unsolved. Yet sanity on them must be approached if humanity is to have any hope at all.
What an interesting way of dodging the question.
What’s this supposed to mean? First of all, the context of the hypothetical clearly indicates that the dictator is human. Second, what do you mean by ’Moral”?
Also, why is it suddenly more acceptable to murder than to just take their property? There’s these things called mental hospitals and prisons, you should look into them.
Edit: Look, it might help to define the LCPW in this context: the question is whether it is ever moral to take someone’s property from them, yeah? So focus on that by making the actual act of doing so really easy—he’s an absent dictator, owning all property on Rinax from his penthouse on Earth. One day he gets buried in paperwork and forgets to sign the form releasing the next year’s food allowance to his subjects. How long should they wait before they break open the shipping containers and steal his food?
Heh, I’m nothing if not Interesting.
The quote is a typo, incidentally—I meant to write “morTal”.
As seductive as the concept is, I see no firmament underlying the basis of ‘human rights’ - without a godhead who frimly endorses them, I’m not sure what they mean, beyond self-evident utlitarianism...
Oh Gods, have I become a Utlitarian? Possibly.
It’s hard to say; given that narrative of who is ‘right’ and who is ‘wrong’ is inevitably written by those who are on the firing squad, I tend not to like this question. I’m honestly not sure how to respond to your comment; what sort of reply would make sense? Let me ask you—was Darth Vader obviously the Good Guy, or was he a Villains whom you could Sympathize With?
“Giving something for ‘free’ is just another form of enslavement ”
Hmmmm, this actually really puzzles me—how do you handle inheritance? Presumably, it being my property, I ought to be free to delegate it as I wish in my will. But, equally, to the person receiving it, it’s a ‘freebie’, a form of enslavement.
What about the other gifts that come from a privileged upbringing (access to a good education, or even just good nutrtion, say)? Surely, as a 2 year old, you didn’t do anything particularly special to be deserving of these things compared to our example African kids—indeed, I doubt there’s anything a 2-year old could do to shift themselves from one circumstance to the other.
Or “mu”. Ownership, self or otherwise, is the wrong frame entirely, for instace.
There are important differences between moral principles and government policies. Even if you accept the premise that the morally optimal course of action is X, it does not logically follow that the government should mandate X. For one thing, it may or may not be feasible to enforce such a law, or the costs of implementing it may outweigh the benefits. Furthermore, some moral philosophies (though not utilitarianism) place firm boundaries on what is and is not the proper role of government.
I would be curious to know your true rejection of utilitarianism.
More generally, reaching the moral conclusion that agent A should do X (or even is obligated to do X), doesn’t obviously entail that agents B, C, D should compel A to do X, nor punish A for failing to do X — nor even that B, C, D are permitted to do so.
The Canadian government has socialist elements, and I wouldn’t mind and would even choose to live in a society that had more. As far as I know, the only freedoms it takes away are those that infringe on other people...considering that human beings are social animals, many or most of our decisions do affect other people. (I have not researched this. Feel free to prove me wrong or enlighten me on other aspects.)
The problem for me—speaking as a Canadian—is that there’s no choice about it. To be honest Canada’s a pretty good place to live. Despite the personality-disordered weirdo we have running the place, it’s relatively free; decent amounts of freedom of speech, stable currency, only moderate corruption in our police forces, and greater economic liberty than the US (that’s right—Soviet Canuckistan is less government run than the US) - my biggest upsets are Gun Control, the state of Domestic Violence Law, and the ‘Human Rights’ Tribunals which censor speech critical of protected groups. The worst thing our Monster in Parliament is trying to do is enact the equivalent of the Patriot Act, ten years too late.
The fundamental problem, though, is the lack of choice to begin with—immigration has huge barriers, and it’s not like there’s room for any more countries. We’re all forced into the coutnry we live in, and I suspect that the real civilizing force is the decency of regular people, who manage despite the government.
It’s like the post office, fifty years ago—they delivered the mail, they were adequate, but they weren’t performing anywhere near the level that was possible. Nobody complained (much) because they were accustomed to it. As soon as private delivery companies entered the scene.the post office had to shape up fast.
If I had the choice, I might choose to enter a socialist collective of sorts—at the very least, I’d want to live in an incorporated city which took care of the roads and sewers. The same thing should go for countries; nobody forces me to live in Calgary and accept the local tax burden, it wouldn’t be right. Similarly it isn’t right to force people to pay taxes in a country, when they’re deeply opposed to certain elements of government.
Keep in mind, I’m not just complaining without a solution in mind; there are workable solutions that would pay for things such as national defence, while subjecting government to the integrity of the private market. Poly-centric law is one example, though I think having a Corporate Monarchy would be more workable here in Canada.
Anectodal evidence: In France, the post office is much worse since they have competition.