Traditionally, things like this are socially achieved by using some form of “good cop, bad cop” strategy. You have someone who explains the concepts clearly and bluntly, regardless of whom it may offend (e.g. Eliezer Yudkowsky), and you have someone who presents the concepts nicely and inoffensively, reaching a wider audience (e.g. Scott Alexander), but ultimately they both use the same framework.
The inoffensiveness of Scott is of course relative, but I would say that people who get offended by him are really not the target audience for rationalist thought. Because, ultimately, saying “2+2=4” means offending people who believe that 2+2=5 and are really sensitive about it; so the only way to be non-offensive is to never say anything specific.
If a movement only has the “bad cops” and no “good cops”, it will be perceived as a group of assholes. Which is not necessarily bad if the members are powerful; people want to join the winning side. But without actual power, it will not gain wide acceptance. Most people don’t want to go into unnecessary conflicts.
On the other hand, a movement with “good cops” without “bad cops” will get its message diluted. First, the diplomatic believers will dilute their message in order not to offend anyone. Their fans will further dilute the message, because even the once-diluted version is too strong for normies’ taste. At the end, the message may gain popular support… kind of… because the version that gains the popular support will actually contain maybe 1% of the original message, but mostly 99% of what the normies already believed, peppered by the new keywords.
The more people will present rationality using different methods, the better. Because each of them will reach a different audience. So I completely approve the approach you suggest… in addition to the existing ones.
I need to try a lot harder to remember that this is just a community full of individuals airing their strongly held personal opinions on a variety of topics.
Those opinions often have something in common—respect for the scientific method, effort to improve one’s rationality, concern about artificial intelligence—and I like to believe it is not just a random idiosyncratic mix (a bunch of random things Eliezer likes), but different manifestations of the same underlying principle (use your intelligence to win, not to defeat yourself). However, not everyone is interested in all of this.
And I would definitely like to see “somebody friendly, funny, empathic, a good performer, neat and practiced” promoting these values in a YouTube channel or in books. But that requires a talent I don’t have, so I can only wait until someone else with the necessary skills does it.
This reminded me of the YouTube channel of Julia Galef, but the latest videos there are 3 years old.
Her podcast is really good IMHO. She does a singularly good job of challenging guests in a friendly manner, dutifully tracking nuance, steelmanning, etc. It just picked back up after about a yearlong hiatus (presumably due to her book writing).
Unfortunately, I see the lack of notoriety for her podcast to be some evidence against the prospects of the “skilled & likeable performer” strategy. I assume that potential subscribers are more interested in lower-quality podcasts and YouTubers that indulge in bias rather than confronting it. Dunno what to do about that, but I’m glad she’s back to podcasting.
Traditionally, things like this are socially achieved by using some form of “good cop, bad cop” strategy. You have someone who explains the concepts clearly and bluntly, regardless of whom it may offend (e.g. Eliezer Yudkowsky), and you have someone who presents the concepts nicely and inoffensively, reaching a wider audience (e.g. Scott Alexander), but ultimately they both use the same framework.
The inoffensiveness of Scott is of course relative, but I would say that people who get offended by him are really not the target audience for rationalist thought. Because, ultimately, saying “2+2=4” means offending people who believe that 2+2=5 and are really sensitive about it; so the only way to be non-offensive is to never say anything specific.
If a movement only has the “bad cops” and no “good cops”, it will be perceived as a group of assholes. Which is not necessarily bad if the members are powerful; people want to join the winning side. But without actual power, it will not gain wide acceptance. Most people don’t want to go into unnecessary conflicts.
On the other hand, a movement with “good cops” without “bad cops” will get its message diluted. First, the diplomatic believers will dilute their message in order not to offend anyone. Their fans will further dilute the message, because even the once-diluted version is too strong for normies’ taste. At the end, the message may gain popular support… kind of… because the version that gains the popular support will actually contain maybe 1% of the original message, but mostly 99% of what the normies already believed, peppered by the new keywords.
The more people will present rationality using different methods, the better. Because each of them will reach a different audience. So I completely approve the approach you suggest… in addition to the existing ones.
You’re right.
I need to try a lot harder to remember that this is just a community full of individuals airing their strongly held personal opinions on a variety of topics.
Those opinions often have something in common—respect for the scientific method, effort to improve one’s rationality, concern about artificial intelligence—and I like to believe it is not just a random idiosyncratic mix (a bunch of random things Eliezer likes), but different manifestations of the same underlying principle (use your intelligence to win, not to defeat yourself). However, not everyone is interested in all of this.
And I would definitely like to see “somebody friendly, funny, empathic, a good performer, neat and practiced” promoting these values in a YouTube channel or in books. But that requires a talent I don’t have, so I can only wait until someone else with the necessary skills does it.
This reminded me of the YouTube channel of Julia Galef, but the latest videos there are 3 years old.
Her podcast is really good IMHO. She does a singularly good job of challenging guests in a friendly manner, dutifully tracking nuance, steelmanning, etc. It just picked back up after about a yearlong hiatus (presumably due to her book writing).
Unfortunately, I see the lack of notoriety for her podcast to be some evidence against the prospects of the “skilled & likeable performer” strategy. I assume that potential subscribers are more interested in lower-quality podcasts and YouTubers that indulge in bias rather than confronting it. Dunno what to do about that, but I’m glad she’s back to podcasting.
That’s wonderful news, thank you for telling me!
For those who have clicked on the YouTube link in my previous comment, there is no new content as of now, go to the Rationally Speaking podcast.
You’re both assuming that you have a set of correct ideas coupled with bad PR...but how well are Bayes, Aumann and MWI (eg.) actually doing?
Look, I’m neurotypical and I don’t find anything Eliezer writes offensive, will you please stop ostracizing us.
Did either of them say neurotypical? I just heard them say normies.
Oh, sorry, I’ve only heard the word used in that context before, I thought that’s what it meant. Turns out it has a broader meaning.