I think it’s simply false that human reproduction now selects for the ‘tamest’ humans, whatever that means. Now, as always, human reproduction selects for those who are most able to reproduce.
It does not make sense to say that human reproduction does not select for the ‘tamest’ humans because it really selects for those most able to reproduce. Those are different levels of abstraction. The question is: are the ‘tamest’ humans the ones most able to reproduce, and therefore selected for by evolution?
Agreed. One of the interesting points in that Dawkin’s book is how sexual selection can result in the enhancement of traits that neither increase survivability or produce more offspring. He talks about ‘fashions’ spreading within a species, in his personal theory of how humans started walking upright.
Basically, the females or the males start selecting for a particular rare behavior as indicative of something desirable over their lessers, which leads to that male or female exhibiting that trait reproducing and the trait being reinforced for as long as it is in ‘fashion’. Several cases of the way that can run away are presented in the book; Testicle size in chimpanzees due to sperm competition and the incredible sexual dimorphism in elephant seals which has driven the male to up to 8 times the size of the female. (Only one male in any given group reproduces.)
There’s always a reason for any selection, but when you deal with creatures with any kind of mindfulness, sometimes the reasons stem from the minds rather than perfectly from the biology.
I don’t understand your point about levels of abstraction.
The question is: are the ‘tamest’ humans the ones most able to reproduce, and therefore selected for by evolution?
Are the most rockin’ humans the ones most able to reproduce? In the absence of any visible evidence, my answer to both questions is most likely not. Evidence would require a clear definition of tame (or rockin’). We can mostly agree on what a tame fox is but what is a tame human?
It seems to me that essentially random copulation, with some selection/treatment for serious genetic diseases is just fine for maintaining biological humans pretty much as-is. I don’t know enough about mathematical biology to articulate a quantitative argument for this, but I’d like to hear it, for or against.
I don’t understand your point about levels of abstraction.
Imagine if someone said “This shape is not a rectangle. It is a quadrilateral.” You would probably think, “Well, some quadrilaterals are rectangles, so the shape being a quadrilateral does not mean it is not a rectangle.” “Quadrilateral” represents a higher level of abstraction than “rectangle” in that it specifies the shape less. Generally, the fact that something is accurately described in a vague manner does not mean it cannot also be accurately described in a more precise manner.
That evolution selects for the most reproductively fit is tautological, it is practically the definition of “reproductively fit”. The reason this tautology is useful is that it gets us to ask the question: what more concrete properties must an organism have to be reproductively fit? Here the property of “tameness” has been proposed as such a property, and represents a lower level of abstraction. Though, not much lower, you correctly point out that “Evidence would require a clear definition of tame”.
In this case, tame might mean: “Able to co-exist with other males in your species”. Our concestor with chimpanzees probably wasn’t, but we had to adapt.
It does not make sense to say that human reproduction does not select for the ‘tamest’ humans because it really selects for those most able to reproduce. Those are different levels of abstraction. The question is: are the ‘tamest’ humans the ones most able to reproduce, and therefore selected for by evolution?
Agreed. One of the interesting points in that Dawkin’s book is how sexual selection can result in the enhancement of traits that neither increase survivability or produce more offspring. He talks about ‘fashions’ spreading within a species, in his personal theory of how humans started walking upright.
Basically, the females or the males start selecting for a particular rare behavior as indicative of something desirable over their lessers, which leads to that male or female exhibiting that trait reproducing and the trait being reinforced for as long as it is in ‘fashion’. Several cases of the way that can run away are presented in the book; Testicle size in chimpanzees due to sperm competition and the incredible sexual dimorphism in elephant seals which has driven the male to up to 8 times the size of the female. (Only one male in any given group reproduces.)
There’s always a reason for any selection, but when you deal with creatures with any kind of mindfulness, sometimes the reasons stem from the minds rather than perfectly from the biology.
I don’t understand your point about levels of abstraction.
Are the most rockin’ humans the ones most able to reproduce? In the absence of any visible evidence, my answer to both questions is most likely not. Evidence would require a clear definition of tame (or rockin’). We can mostly agree on what a tame fox is but what is a tame human?
It seems to me that essentially random copulation, with some selection/treatment for serious genetic diseases is just fine for maintaining biological humans pretty much as-is. I don’t know enough about mathematical biology to articulate a quantitative argument for this, but I’d like to hear it, for or against.
Imagine if someone said “This shape is not a rectangle. It is a quadrilateral.” You would probably think, “Well, some quadrilaterals are rectangles, so the shape being a quadrilateral does not mean it is not a rectangle.” “Quadrilateral” represents a higher level of abstraction than “rectangle” in that it specifies the shape less. Generally, the fact that something is accurately described in a vague manner does not mean it cannot also be accurately described in a more precise manner.
That evolution selects for the most reproductively fit is tautological, it is practically the definition of “reproductively fit”. The reason this tautology is useful is that it gets us to ask the question: what more concrete properties must an organism have to be reproductively fit? Here the property of “tameness” has been proposed as such a property, and represents a lower level of abstraction. Though, not much lower, you correctly point out that “Evidence would require a clear definition of tame”.
In this case, tame might mean: “Able to co-exist with other males in your species”. Our concestor with chimpanzees probably wasn’t, but we had to adapt.