So my overall position here is something like: we should use religions as a source of possible deep insights about human psychology and culture, to a greater extent than LessWrong historically has (and I’m grateful to Alex for highlighting this, especially given the social cost of doing so).
Thanks a lot for the kind words!
IMO this all remains true even if we focus on the heuristics recommended by many religions, i.e. the pluralistic focus Alex mentions.
I think we’re interpreting “pluralism” differently. Here are some central illustrations of what I consider to be the pluralist perspective:
the Catholic priest I met at the Parliament of World Religions who encouraged someone who had really bad experiences with Christianity to find spiritual truth in Hinduism
I don’t think “lots of religions recommend X” means the pluralist perspective thinks X is good. If anything, the pluralist perspective is actually pretty uncommon / unusual among religions, especially these days.
Because if you understand the insights that Christianity is built upon, you can use those to reach people without the language of Christianity itself. And if you don’t understand those insights, then you don’t know how to avoid incorporating the toxic parts of Christianity.
I think this doesn’t work for people with IQ ⇐ 100, which is about half the world. I agree that an understanding of these insights is necessary to avoid incorporating the toxic parts of Christianity, but I think this can be done even using the language of Christianity. (There’s a lot of latitude in how one can interpret the Bible!)
I think we’re interpreting “pluralism” differently. Here are some central illustrations of what I consider to be the pluralist perspective:
the Catholic priest I met at the Parliament of World Religions who encouraged someone who had really bad experiences with Christianity to find spiritual truth in Hinduism
If I change “i.e. the pluralist focus Alex mentions” to “e.g. the pluralist focus Alex mentions” does that work? I shouldn’t have implied that all people who believe in heuristics recommended by many religions are pluralists (in your sense). But it does seem reasonable to say that pluralists (in your sense) believe in heuristics recommended by many religions, unless I’m misunderstanding you. (In the examples you listed these would be heuristics like “seek spiritual truth”, “believe in (some version of) God”, “learn from great healers”, etc.)
I think this doesn’t work for people with IQ ⇐ 100, which is about half the world. I agree that an understanding of these insights is necessary to avoid incorporating the toxic parts of Christianity, but I think this can be done even using the language of Christianity. (There’s a lot of latitude in how one can interpret the Bible!)
I personally don’t have a great way of distinguishing between “trying to reach these people” and “trying to manipulate these people”. In general I don’t even think most people trying to do such outreach genuinely know whether their actual motivations are more about outreach or about manipulation. (E.g. I expect that most people who advocate for luxury beliefs sincerely believe that they’re trying to help worse-off people understand the truth.) Because of this I’m skeptical of elite projects that have outreach as a major motivation, except when it comes to very clearly scientifically-grounded stuff.
If I change “i.e. the pluralist focus Alex mentions” to “e.g. the pluralist focus Alex mentions” does that work? I shouldn’t have implied that all people who believe in heuristics recommended by many religions are pluralists (in your sense). But it does seem reasonable to say that pluralists (in your sense) believe in heuristics recommended by many religions, unless I’m misunderstanding you. (In the examples you listed these would be heuristics like “seek spiritual truth”, “believe in (some version of) God”, “learn from great healers”, etc.)
If your main point is “don’t follow religious heuristics blindly, only follow them if you actually understand why they’re good” I’m totally with you. I think I got thrown off a bit because, AFAIU, the way people tend to come to adopt pluralist views is by doing exactly that, and thereby coming to conclusions that go against mainstream religious interpretations. (I am super impressed that the Pope himself seems to have been going in this direction. The Catholic monks at the monastery I visited generally wished the Pope were a lot more conservative.)
I personally don’t have a great way of distinguishing between “trying to reach these people” and “trying to manipulate these people”.
I use heuristics similar to those for communicating to young children.
In general I don’t even think most people trying to do such outreach genuinely know whether their actual motivations are more about outreach or about manipulation. (E.g. I expect that most people who advocate for luxury beliefs sincerely believe that they’re trying to help worse-off people understand the truth.) Because of this I’m skeptical of elite projects that have outreach as a major motivation, except when it comes to very clearly scientifically-grounded stuff.
This is why I mostly want religious pluralist leaders who already have an established track record of trustworthiness in their religious communities to be in charge of getting the message across to the people of their religion.
Thanks a lot for the kind words!
I think we’re interpreting “pluralism” differently. Here are some central illustrations of what I consider to be the pluralist perspective:
the Catholic priest I met at the Parliament of World Religions who encouraged someone who had really bad experiences with Christianity to find spiritual truth in Hinduism
the passage in the Quran that says the true believers of Judaism and Christianity will also be saved
the Vatican calling the Buddha and Jesus great healers
I don’t think “lots of religions recommend X” means the pluralist perspective thinks X is good. If anything, the pluralist perspective is actually pretty uncommon / unusual among religions, especially these days.
I think this doesn’t work for people with IQ ⇐ 100, which is about half the world. I agree that an understanding of these insights is necessary to avoid incorporating the toxic parts of Christianity, but I think this can be done even using the language of Christianity. (There’s a lot of latitude in how one can interpret the Bible!)
If I change “i.e. the pluralist focus Alex mentions” to “e.g. the pluralist focus Alex mentions” does that work? I shouldn’t have implied that all people who believe in heuristics recommended by many religions are pluralists (in your sense). But it does seem reasonable to say that pluralists (in your sense) believe in heuristics recommended by many religions, unless I’m misunderstanding you. (In the examples you listed these would be heuristics like “seek spiritual truth”, “believe in (some version of) God”, “learn from great healers”, etc.)
I personally don’t have a great way of distinguishing between “trying to reach these people” and “trying to manipulate these people”. In general I don’t even think most people trying to do such outreach genuinely know whether their actual motivations are more about outreach or about manipulation. (E.g. I expect that most people who advocate for luxury beliefs sincerely believe that they’re trying to help worse-off people understand the truth.) Because of this I’m skeptical of elite projects that have outreach as a major motivation, except when it comes to very clearly scientifically-grounded stuff.
If your main point is “don’t follow religious heuristics blindly, only follow them if you actually understand why they’re good” I’m totally with you. I think I got thrown off a bit because, AFAIU, the way people tend to come to adopt pluralist views is by doing exactly that, and thereby coming to conclusions that go against mainstream religious interpretations. (I am super impressed that the Pope himself seems to have been going in this direction. The Catholic monks at the monastery I visited generally wished the Pope were a lot more conservative.)
I use heuristics similar to those for communicating to young children.
This is why I mostly want religious pluralist leaders who already have an established track record of trustworthiness in their religious communities to be in charge of getting the message across to the people of their religion.